In a response to Stingray's answer to their question the user 'I Think Therefore I Am' said:
Something we discuss here and acknowledge is the ability to shift our surroundings to meet or desires. A point I haven't seen is other people and how they play into this ability. What happens if another person is trying to manifest an opposing idea to one of your own? If there is or can there be a 'battle', who wins? If this situation is not possible, why do you feel that way? If you believe battling wills IS possible, do you believe there is an all-powerful being, (someone who cannot be defeated in a battle of wills) as far as manifestation is concerned? [*Edit: Since I failed in appropriately explaining the correlation between these questions, (not the first time I've had this problem, and likely not the last) I reworded the above and I will try to explain myself more clearly below. If you see a way to clarify all of this into a more simple but still equally concise manner, I encourage you to do so.] My first and 'real' question is this: What happens when two people try to manifest opposing outcomes to a situation. From that point there are a few possible answers, but no matter the answer the question I would pose next if I were actually having a back-and-forth conversation would be one of the questions listed above, depending on the response. The reason I include the next logical steps in my conversational path is so a person can suitably explain their response from the beginning, instead of me asking for more details as a sub-comment, then having them respond as a sub-comment, and so on. It is much more difficult to read for me personally, and I strongly prefer being able to see all of the information organized together in one place as the person responding sees appropriate.
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The question has been closed for the following reason "Duplicate Question" by Kathleen Kelly 30 Dec '11, 11:29
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Since this is a question seeking the sharing of opinions, here is my own on the subject. As always I'm interested in hearing everyone's opinion on the topic, as well as any thoughts on my personal opinion as well. My opinion: A question arises: If I can change ANYTHING, then I am God and everybody is just a figment of my imagination and basically I'm bored and playing hide and go seek by myself. Luckily, I don't believe life is a 'one player' game, so to speak. My response to this is simple: The power of manifestation isn't an absolute, since I don't believe in absolutes. So realities and creations?" I believe every person has a 'will', their desire. The stronger their will, the stronger their influence on the outcome of any given situation they encounter. As such I believe situations where there are no opposing forces or very weak opposing forces (such as randomly generated numbers) are easy for anyone to influence the outcome of if they understand how to do it. This also means situations where there are strong opposing forces the more powerful your will must be. The result of this is pretty simple: Reality is an accumulation of all of the beliefs of every living creature. If a new subject arises where there is no belief system in place, the person discovering it is much more capable of changing the result. From there I believe there are two ways we can gain 'power'. The first being from within ourselves, as we all have a 'generator' so to speak, which is capable of creating an incredible amount of energy, the likes of which we haven't even begun to imagine yet. The second is from the energy which is created through our bonds with other living creatures. This energy can be shared through positivity or negativity, and upon being received it can be accepted, rejected, or redirected just like momentum. Of course rejecting energy requires more power than redirecting it, and if the energy we try to reject is too strong it can overwhelm us. So I believe every time we meet a new person we create a bond. The strength of the bond is determined by the influence you have on one another. The energy we share is also decided by us, and how we think of one another. If we have positive thoughts about a person or group of people, we are giving them power. If we have negative thoughts about a person or group, we are trying to weaken them. Most people assume weakening everyone around them will make them 'stronger' because of relativity, but in actuality it makes everyone weaker. For an example: I think life is a game which works like this: Every time we divide ourselves into groups, identities, or associations we create a new 'entity' that has a point value, we can call this 'power' or 'will'. The power of an entity starts at 0, and is made stronger as it is given more power by those around it. Whenever two groups meet through any form of interaction (even ones we aren't capable of perceiving currently) there is an exchange of power. Party A decides if they are going to think positively or negatively of Party B, and that determines the kind of energy they share. Party B decides the same, and the result is the same. Neither party knows what kind of energy the other is sending, unless they are capable of perceiving these energies, which most people are not. (For the sake of THIS explanation, assume positive energy is 'green' and negative energy is 'red') If A decides to hold up a 'green sign' so to speak, then B gets an increase to their power equal to how much A decided to give them. For the sake of simplicity lets assume a +5 If a red sign is 'held up', then the target loses -5. So what happens if both sides hold up red signs? Both lose -5 points, and the cumulative result is a -10 between the two. If both sides hold up green signs, both gain +5 points, and the cumulative result is a +10 between the two. If one holds up a green sign and the other holds up a red, then the recipient of the green sign will get +5, and the other will get -5, resulting in a net change of 0. The above game was a challenge posed to a class of mine in highschool, where we were told no rules nor objectives, only what you've been told here. Each group has points, this is how points are distributed, there are this many rounds before the game is over, no more questions for the teacher. From the first moment I looked at this and realized it was a zero sum game as long as there was one green and one red, a cumulative loss if both sides were red, and a cumulative gain if both sides were green. Since we were not given an objective, I concluded the best result for everyone would be to choose green. As it turned out, the challenge was between different classes, and the one with the highest cumulative score was the winner. My class beat every other class by an incredible amount, 4/6 of the participants ending either with a 0 score or with less than they started with. The morale of this story is similar to what is expressed in the video "Occupy Wall Street: The Occupation Is Love". An economist will say that more for you means less for me. A lover knows more for you means more for me as well, because your happiness makes me happy. I think that is how the balance of life works, and it is necessary to have different groups of people and individuals who interact with a balance of both positivity and negativity, but with an overall 'positive' gain for everyone. As a result I think that people will naturally be drawn to any belief systems or activities that reward them with positivity, because it makes them stronger. And I believe that is how our reality is shaped, and why it is constantly changing as people come to new conclusions on how to best make the game fair for everyone involved. i agree with you leo. and the people starting from the belief we are all one has only one part of the answer. the person belief we are all individual has only one part of the answer. the only absolute is the truth.we are all individual all connected together in the golden light the grace of god and we share at the speed of light through the golden light in that way we are one. many will not believe me because they are stuck in beliefand duality. eventually they will reach harmony in this life or the next. experience and enjoy.
(25 Nov '11, 03:08)
white tiger
also leo all the technique you can learn. but life, nature everything is martial art.
(25 Nov '11, 03:16)
white tiger
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF92PJDxdLU
(25 Nov '11, 03:18)
white tiger
An excellent video, and excellent words to go with it. Definitely a video that will stick with me. I realize I say thank you too much, because then when I want to express a gratitude greater than normal I'm left without the words to express it appropriately. =P
(25 Nov '11, 03:30)
Leo
Wow Leo this is an awsome answer. I like the fact that you answer your own questions.
(27 Nov '11, 07:20)
Paulina 1
^_^ Well it is important that we not only listen to the opinions of others, but generate our own. Me sharing my opinion with all of you is just as important to me as you sharing yours with me. That sentence came out much more confusing than it sounded in my head... My point? My sensei taught me that we learn more in teaching something ourselves than we do being taught it. I believe this applies not only to martial arts, but life as well. As we are forced to draw our own explanations, we analyze them and decide what parts of them make sense and what parts of them do not. [...
(27 Nov '11, 07:35)
Leo
...] This is why I am always saying babble like "I don't believe there are any 'answers', only 'questions'" Of course, since I don't believe in absolutes, there is one exception to that rule. There is ONE answer that is definite and immutable, and that is the purpose of life is enjoyment, in whatever way fits you most. Otherwise I think we are all students and all here to try and figure out as many answers we can, make as many bonds as we can, and have as much fun as possible.
(27 Nov '11, 07:37)
Leo
This is also why I always encourage others to share their opinions back, and I try to emphasize this by adding 'guiding' questions to get people started if they lack inspiration. Then I become their inspiration, we share a bond in that fact, and we both become stronger for it. But only by teaching can we truly begin to learn. ^_^ (teaching in the case being sharing with those DESIRING to hear you, not preaching to those uninterested.)
(27 Nov '11, 07:39)
Leo
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leo i will ask you a question and i am sure that you can realize that you are not talking with the wind. you said 2 will oppose who win? what do you learn in martial art? if one push you pull if one pull you push. think about the yin yang symbol. so who do you think win? the one in harmony of course. be the circle. experience and enjoy. Develop Yourself to Your Fullest Potential So That You and Others May Live Harmoniously http://judoinfo.com/quotes2.htm Aikido (合気道, Aikidō?) is a Japanese martial art developed by Morihei Ueshiba as a synthesis of his martial studies, philosophy, and religious beliefs. Aikido is often translated as "the Way of unifying (with) life energy"[1] or as "the Way of harmonious spirit." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aikido “The way of a Warrior is not to kill and destroy but to foster life, to continually create.” In Aikido one does not attack. “If you want to strike first to gain advantage over someone, this is proof your training is insufficient,” said O-sensei. Yet, one does not run or cower from attack either. Aikido is not passive. Rather, the Aikidoka lets the other attack and uses the attacker’s aggression or energy against him. In this way one can defeat an opponent through non-resistance by leveraging the other’s force rather than one using his own brute strength to resist. Strive for harmony. Ki (気) can be translated as "life force" or "vital force" or more commonly as “spirit” or "energy." It is the living energy that flows through all things. Aikido teaches the student how to be in harmony with the spirit/energy of the universe and how to use this energy of life rather than resist it. In Aikido, force and energy is not about strength of the body, which is limited, but about the power of ki, which is limitless. "We can't control ki but we can create the ideal situation within ourselves for ki to work," says the late Aikido master Kensho Furuya. Proper mindfulness, stillness, presence, as well as relaxation of movement can help create the ideal situation for which this energy can flow. Go with the flow. This may sound to you like some groovy expression from the ’60s, but it is actually very practical. “Going with the flow” does not mean to act passively—quite the contrary. Going with the flow comes from a place of total awareness and an understanding of how things actually are in reality. Remember the universe and nature are our greatest teacher. The energy of a stream, for example, flows through the forest smoothly having created its path around rocks and myriad natural obstacles. Or look how the bamboo in the same forest sways and bends in the wind but never breaks. When you remain calm and in harmony with your own personal state and the state of your surroundings your natural energy can flow smoothly, but if you resist and push back from a place of stress and anger your energy creates a discordance leading to bad results for all concerned. Sensen no sen - The founder of aikido said: “It is not a question of either ‘sensen no sen’ or ‘sen no sen.’ If I were to try to verbalize it I would say that you control your opponent without trying to control him. That is, the state of continuous victory. There isn’t any question of winning over or losing to an opponent. In this sense, there is no opponent in aikido. Even if you have an opponent, he becomes a part of you, a partner you control only.” http://www.presentationzen.com/presentationzen/2010/10/lessons-from-the-world-of-aikido.html Your reference to martial arts makes me smile, because it serves as a foundation for much of what I believe. This is why I think the most powerful beings are ones who do not try to face negative energy head on, and surely not those who simply accept it, but instead it is those who are good at redirecting this energy into whatever means they see most suitable. I really want to study Aikido, but I have not yet found a school that I feel 'calls me', as it needs to. I plan on studying every martial art I can find a good teacher in though. Just a question of finding them. =)
(25 Nov '11, 02:46)
Leo
It is also a point I reference in my own response to this question, which is the strength in redirecting energy instead of rejecting it or accepting it. ^_^ Much appreciation for sharing.
(25 Nov '11, 02:48)
Leo
leo the greatest teacher is nature. go in the woods and find a partner.
(25 Nov '11, 02:50)
white tiger
I'm not sure what kind of partner you are suggesting. When I exercise or do yoga outside animals of all varieties often pass by me, giving me funny looks but never acting as if they feel threatened, and then they continue on their way.
(25 Nov '11, 03:50)
Leo
Leo...interesting coincidence. Wade is a Sixth-Degree Black Belt in Karate, and Teaches Karate, Ju-Jitsu, and some Aikido in the Shotokan system of Karate that he and his Dad have perfected. It is interesting that you and Wade are here, debating...it as if you, Leo, are already sparring on some level! ;o) >>>>>>>>>>>>
(25 Nov '11, 04:08)
Jaianniah
if a animal,a tree the element earth wind water fire wants to train with you why not or see what you can learn from him. experience and enjoy.
(25 Nov '11, 04:12)
white tiger
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-uJUQe80AY
(25 Nov '11, 04:15)
white tiger
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YeVXxCWHLQ&feature=related
(25 Nov '11, 04:21)
white tiger
@Jai: Yes, that was one of the very first things I noticed about Wade, and it is something I contemplate every time I read his writings. When I first read that I hoped that he had a school where I lived, but unfortunately that is not the case. Hopefully some day my travels will bring me closer, and maybe some day his school could be one I train under. However, I do hope he doesn't use the terminology 'perfected' in regards to his art, because I left my former school due to my master's inability to acknowledge that he is NOT always correct, despite that being one of his fundamental teachings.
(25 Nov '11, 05:49)
Leo
I dislike the word perfect when it is used to describe a 'finished' product, because I don't believe that anything is ever finished, there is always room for improvement. I do however regularly use 'perfect' to describe the beauty I see in those who attract me, not because I think they are actually physically 'perfect' or even close to it, but because their imperfections come together in an imperfect way to create a perfect picture, who they are.
(25 Nov '11, 05:50)
Leo
@WT: Very good videos, as usual. Now I just need to figure out what the middle ground that lets me work up to kicking trees is...
(25 Nov '11, 05:54)
Leo
well find a tree and start the training. you might find one that needs some branch to come down or that needs to come down. so experience and enjoy. o also be careful that the tree is not faster then you. other wise when he fall on you the training will be in high gear. and you will need to split it in 2 with your fore arm.
(25 Nov '11, 07:04)
white tiger
and do not become angry at the tree stay focus. if you do not want to finish on the ground holding your leg.
(25 Nov '11, 07:10)
white tiger
and if you think that it is not martial art.look at this does it look like a tree is it made from wood? .http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/training.asp
(25 Nov '11, 07:16)
white tiger
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xxHGCSjejE&feature=related
(25 Nov '11, 07:24)
white tiger
Leo lol yes "perfected" Jai's opinion and words not mine. :-) Learning is a lifetime experience, it never ends, even now I am still learning new things about my kata or technique all the time. When you reach Black Belt you have finely made it to the beginning. Now the real learning comes that last a lifetime but we work toward a perfection we can never reach but as long as we never stop reaching we keep getting closer and closer all the time. This is living the honor of Karate it is a way of life. Leo I would be happy to train and teach you some day. :-)
(26 Nov '11, 06:10)
Wade Casaldi
If we strive for excellence instead of perfection we can reach that as we do the very best that we can do. A student of mine would totally blow a kata at the tournaments we went over again and again but he would win first place every time. The reason is he strove for excellence instead of perfection. He adapted as I taught him to, if you are in a fight you can not go back and do it over the same with a kata, you can not step on the same piece of water twice. When he would finish his kata the judges were impressed, they had no idea he did everything different than the kata was suppose to be. ..
(26 Nov '11, 06:21)
Wade Casaldi
All they knew was he had great technique, great stances, great kicks, and full confidence in himself all the way to finish and beyond. That is why he would win all the first place trophies for that kata every time. He did not work to make it perfect up there in front of the judges but to do his very best, excellence!
(26 Nov '11, 06:23)
Wade Casaldi
Intelligent people know others. Enlightened people know themselves. You can conquer others with power, But it takes true strength to conquer yourself. Ambitious people force their will on others, But content people are already wealthy. Prudent people will abide. People unconquered by the idea of death will live long. People who live according to their means last long.
(26 Nov '11, 06:41)
white tiger
http://www.thetao.info/english/page33.htm
(26 Nov '11, 06:42)
white tiger
Is it just me or are you becoming more and more articulate, WT? I had difficulty understanding you when I first came here, but I've seen repeated excellent and easy to understand posts from you. Much appreciation for sharing, as always. =)
(27 Nov '11, 07:50)
Leo
@Wade: The idea of training under you brings a smile to my face, so something tells me that my journeys will bring me to your gym one day. I assure you I greatly look forward to the day that they do. :)
(27 Nov '11, 07:54)
Leo
am i hard to fathom? All things make sense; you just have to fathom how they make sense.Can ye fathom the ocean, dark and deep, where the mighty waves and the grandeur sweep?
(27 Nov '11, 18:52)
white tiger
in which direction a fire goes when it has gone out?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tath%C4%81gata
(27 Nov '11, 19:26)
white tiger
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Lets see you have asked six questions in one here. 1st question "Thoughts about what would happen if two powerful opposing manifestations meet?" See my answer to this here. 2nd question "Do you believe your manifestations have any limits?" Yes as the limits of my faith in God that he would do for me. He promises anything we ask is ours because we accept Jesus as our personal savior so we need to believe that or we are calling God a liar. 3rd question"What happens if another person is trying to manifest an opposing idea to one of your own?" again I say I answered this here. 4th question "Who wins?" same as 3rd answer. 5th question "Is this situation even possible?" Yes very possible as we see everyday and my Hope Diamond example, many billionaires want that, but only one owns it. 6th question "Is there such a thing as an all-powerful being, as far as manifestation is concerned?" Yes I believe so as Jesus taught us and he believed so and did amazing things, I have healed people cast out demons and manifested in Jesus name. It is easier to have faith in a God over everything than it is in your self. Like the old thought, "What can I do I am just a man?" Everyone experiences that. We are far more than that as Jesus taught us. Very interesting indeed. It is funny to me that people of such different faiths, such as you and I, can come to the same conclusions but use different logic to get there. This is why I believe in the idea that 'all roads lead to god' and I destain any religion that condemns those who do not follow its specific teachings. If people decide to live life the proper way, why would I care how they got to that conclusion. As always, much appreciation for sharing. =]
(25 Nov '11, 03:54)
Leo
well wade you know me my faith is in knowing.
(25 Nov '11, 04:24)
white tiger
There are many things universal like the golden rule for example. "Jesus and Buddha the parallel teaching" is a good book for example on how many truths are universal. I have Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist and Wiccan friends. Sometimes I share my Zen knowledge too. Opening up and sharing is a good thing for comparison and understanding each other better. Leo I know you don't like Christians but understand when you say All Paths lead to God they are included in that all.
(25 Nov '11, 16:03)
Wade Casaldi
Yes, absolutely they are. Remember, I was raised as a Christian. Many of the people I love and care about are Christians, and that in no way bothers me nor do I ever try to change them from being what they are. My issue is because I had Christianity shoved down my throat since I was a child from every possible direction, and it is a fact that I absolutely hold resentment over when I should not. It was an excellent learning experience, but it has made me considerably more critical of Christianity's flaws than any other religion, because I have studied it more. I don't mean to ever come off [..]
(26 Nov '11, 00:18)
Leo
I don't mean to ever come off as an antagonist against Christians any more than any other religion. In fact, I have every intention of having a tattoo that will include symbolism referencing monotheism, and all of its derivatives. It's simply that I have by far studied what I personally view as the 'flaws' or inconsistencies with Christianity in considerably further detail, and so I speak more about it than other religions I do not have the understanding to justify making statements about. I try to avoid making statements without first having my own logical basis for my conclusions.
(26 Nov '11, 00:22)
Leo
Ahh now I understand you more, I went to Catholic church when I was small, baptized as a baby all of that. As I grew up I went to various Protestant churches with my mom including Lutheran. But never really felt inspired so for many years I did not go to church at all. I studied in my mystery schools the inner Christ the I Am things like this many years. I gained a lot in the Order of the Mayans and in Astara. It was through these that I found a greater love for Jesus and his teachings that I learned very well. I as well studied guitar and became very proficient at guitar as well. A few ...
(26 Nov '11, 01:44)
Wade Casaldi
Years ago I was asked to play guitar in my church I now go to. I thought maybe it would be fun. I'll put up with church to play, but you know what this pastor was different! He was talking about our authority, manifesting, the command we have over sickness. This was all stuff I studied in my mystery schools for years being taught here as advanced Christian lessons every Sunday! I loved it and still do because it is very uplifting, freeing and empowering! So that is why I now say I am Christian instead of as I used to say I am Spiritual. I come out of the church feeling so alive and able to ...
(26 Nov '11, 01:50)
Wade Casaldi
take on the world! So for me I see Christianity very different than I had for many years, it is a living thing to me that is very powerful and fulfilling to me. You might be interested in the S.O.S. they have an entirely different view on things more to do with our brains and whole brain (Neo-Thinking) You might like that more because it is 100% about self responsibility.
(26 Nov '11, 01:55)
Wade Casaldi
Is that pastor Joel Osteen? =) I've seen a few of his sermons about positive reinforcement of prayer, which basically translates into "manifestation 101 for people who want to think 'god' is making things happen for them instead of themselves." He even teaches the stages of creating 'prayers' and 'believing' them into existence. It's an excellent idea, and he teaches this message with good will and the best intentions for those who hear him. Personally I think it's great, it serves as a stepping stone for people who need someone to rely on while they learn to stand on their own.
(27 Nov '11, 07:43)
Leo
No he is a pastor of my church from my home town. This is not like manifesting 101 either. I have rid homes of demons, can you do that without God?
(27 Nov '11, 12:45)
Wade Casaldi
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This is an duplicate question: See this question: http://www.inwardquest.com/questions/1508/who-wins-if-two-people-have-conflicting-desires
http://www.inwardquest.com/questions/17376/how-does-the-universe-choose-between-those-who-want-the-same-thing-closed
http://www.inwardquest.com/questions/6193/when-2-people-desire-opposite-outcomes-whose-desire-will-manifest-closed
http://www.inwardquest.com/questions/14616/is-it-really-possible-to-achieve-all-your-desires-in-spite-of-counter-forces-cl
Ooh! Much thanks for sharing. Stingray's response was particularly interesting. Still, I'm glad I was unable to find those questions through searching because otherwise I wouldn't have seen WT's response.
Leo you are new here, I am not trying to be mean, I seriously think all of these answers should be linked together to get a better understanding and a big picture view. It lets you too know there are many other answers to this than just here in this question as well.
If I didn't say so before welcome to IQ and Happy Thanksgiving.
One thing though do not ask six questions in one, just keep it just to one question with a detailed explanation of the question. :-)
Well it was intended to be exactly as you said, but obviously my presentation fails if it was not perceived that way.
My intention was that the title would serve as a 'jumping point' so to speak, for the information and opinions that I seek. From there the other points aren't meant to be independent questions, but discussion points on a the single topic, in case my explanation of my purpose or intended direction was not clear. If you see a way to express my question that encompasses all of the subpoints more clearly than I encourage you to edit my post as you see appropriate.
Unfortunately we are all limited by the experiences we have encountered thus far in life, and at this point I am not accustomed to discussing concepts with people wherein I don't need to spell out exactly the kind of thoughts I'm talking about. Since you are more comfortable and understanding of this environment, I believe you will be much more capable of formulating the thoughts in a clear and concise manner, and I encourage you to do so whenever you feel it is appropriate.
As a consequence, this is why much of my writing is extremely long and verbose. It isn't because I believe any of you would have trouble understanding of my meaning if I were to be shorter with my speech, but because I have extremely detailed 'images' in my mind of my ideas and the thoughts or questions that I am trying to convey, and English as a language lacks much of the descriptive capabilities that I would prefer. So don't worry about saying stuff like "I'm not trying to be mean.", I'm not concerned about it in the slightest. Unfortunately I'm just not able to express myself differently.
Yes written word is limited as compared to speech. For example in in speaking I would say instead of duplicate questions, "Oh That reminds me of this question and that question!" :-)
I gave it an edit, and I'll be making another passover or two as I clear my mind. Every time I read my own writing I see ways I can improve it, assuming I allow my mind to appropriately relax between readings. Hopefully it will begin to take a more appropriate shape as I continue to edit it. And as I have repeated endlessly, if you see any ways to help me in making this 'picture' clearer AND more concise, please do.
Well you put up the good fight with editing but still lost as it is just to similar but on the upper hand you gained a lot of answers you didn't know were there already. We could continue this on the original open question. I would like to see some way to edit so we could join all of those questions in one with all the answers underneath for easy reference though.
I don't think I 'lost' anything. As you said, I gained insights I didn't have before. I don't mind the thread being closed in the slightest, because I already gained something from it. Everything happens for a reason my friend. Perhaps now that this thread is closed someone will desire so much to share something they will ask a new, better question that will inspire new answers? ^_^
I never intend for anything I do to be a 'fight'. If I disagree with a moderator's opinion it isn't out of defiance or anything like that, it is merely me sharing MY opinion. The difference is, their opinion has been proven in the past to be worthy of administrating others, and so they have the power to make decisions I do not. See, I have been an administrator, moderator, and leader of countless video games, internet forums, groups, meetings, etc. in my life. I bear no animosity for people in power doing their responsibilities, as long as their intentions are in the right place.