Hi Friends,

The main teaching of the Buddha is that "Desire is the root of Suffering"

The essence of the Gita (hindu scripture) is to "perform actions without desire for the fruits thereof."

On the other hand, we have LOA and books like "Think and Grow Rich" which teach that a burning desire is essential for success.

For most of us, desire is the fuel for action. Without desire where is the motivation to act ?

Enlightened people advocate the giving up of personal will so that your body becomes a channel for the divine will. Then when you have no desires of your own, you can say like Christ "Not my will but Thy will be done my Lord".

So my question is, is action possible without having any desires ? I mean if one truly gives up creating new desires, and all old desires that were already present from the past are all exhausted, and there is truly no more desire for anything in the present moment or in the future, then, will the divine will flow and act in such a person with spontaneous creativity and aliveness, or will this person become a vegetable as good as dead ?

Thank You.

asked 05 Jan '12, 12:58

DesirelessAbundance's gravatar image

DesirelessAbundance
4127

2

I am fascinated by the last chapter in your question. (Although it was 16 days ago) The last chapter is the reason and promise that the ancient seekers were after. They sought to reach the point of no resistance and allow the divine energy of creation to flow with every movement of the mind. But the biggest gift was that such a person was free from the cycle of reincarnation and could choose to ascend to the next stage of existence.

(21 Jan '12, 20:06) The Traveller

the traveler, each of us is a son of father universe. do we choose to discern on the spectrum of desires, its opposites, as well as its center of balance. could we then desire harmony

(21 Jan '12, 20:32) fred

The way to eliminate suffering is to eliminate desire - Buddha.

If Desire is Eliminated, do we also eliminate happiness ? If there can be no action without desire, then how does the tree grow, how does the river flow, how does the heart beat ?

Desireless Action does not imply a desire to not act so it is not like slavery or acting against your will. Desirelessness does not mean depression either. It means just going with the flow, accepting whatever comes fully and acting spontaneously ...

(30 Jan '12, 13:17) DesirelessAbundance
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10

I thought the main teaching of the Buddha was "Suffering and the end of Suffering." His teaching includes what you say: "Desire is the root of Suffering," however, I believe he was pointing out that unfulfilled ego desires lead to suffering and that's why it's beneficial to understand and then to transcend one's ego.

"I teach one thing and one only: that is, suffering and the end of suffering."
Buddha - 563 BCE - 483 BCE

To answer your question, it doesn't seem possible to do anything without first having some kind of desire, otherwise there would be no volition to move in any direction and, as you say, we'd become a vegetable.

So how to get around this apparent paradox?

By living in the present moment of now, as much as possible, whilst understanding that you, as a total being do create all of your reality. And not succumbing to worry and doubt certainly results in a peaceful life experience, in which all of your desires, known and unknown, come to fruition.

Additionally, it’s worth understanding that once someone has begun to transcend their ego they realize that conception of a new idea (new desire) comes from their own higher self (the Christ within) and that is always free of ego desire. It’s free of ego desire because our higher self knows that the direction it desires us to move towards will serve us in a positive way and by its very nature our higher self does not contain the ideas of worry and doubt – they are in the domain of our physical mind or ego-self.

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Jesus of Nazareth - 5 BC/BCE - 30 AD/CE

This statement by Jesus very clearly reveals that no one can reach true understanding concerning the idea of oneness or the one consciousness (the Father) unless they first realize that a) they have a higher self or higher mind and b) the spiritual higher self is the conduit between the physical self and the idea of oneness (Creator). The physical mind alone cannot reach this understanding.

Furthermore, Jesus never said follow me, as we've been led to believe by the intermediaries and interpreters, he said: “Be Like Me” because you are like me and when you remember this you will know the truth of life and the nature of reality.

link

answered 05 Jan '12, 23:48

Eddie's gravatar image

Eddie
19.6k11151

edited 05 Jan '12, 23:51

2

Love your answer Eddie it is wise and true.

(06 Jan '12, 04:22) Paulina 1

Every action is preceded by a desire to fulfill that action.

If you lift your hand to reach for a cup, it's because you want that cup.

link

answered 22 Jan '12, 19:21

Vesuvius's gravatar image

Vesuvius
30.3k120108

edited 22 Jan '12, 19:22

That was the point I was making but this is so much easier for people to understand. Any action comes from desire unless we lose all desire then we are in serious depression.

(22 Jan '12, 19:26) Wade Casaldi

well wade if some one that you don't like has problem: example gets beat up and needs your help even if you have no desire to help him will you not help him? and do what is right?

(22 Jan '12, 23:28) white tiger

I would use the desire in me to do what is right as I would not want to be in that situation so I know even my enemy would not want to be in that situation so yes I'd help him because I desire to do what is right.

(23 Jan '12, 01:36) Wade Casaldi

so wade if you don't have the desire to help him but help him because you have the desire to do what is right. is it still a desire. or does those 2 opposite cancel each other out?

(23 Jan '12, 01:46) white tiger

Yes the desire to help is stronger than the desire to leave him get beat up. So it is the dominate strongest desire that wins.

(23 Jan '12, 02:03) Wade Casaldi

well in that case wade i hope that when some of us are in need of that help that the desire to do what is right will be stronger. experience and enjoy.

(23 Jan '12, 02:42) white tiger
showing 3 of 6 show 3 more comments

Hello DesirelessAbundance, the phrase "giving up of personal will so that your body becomes a channel" leads to inspired action and provides the key to answering the question ... other actions are ego based ... there is a place for the ego to express itself in our physical world so long as it allows the free flow of inspired action. In everyday living conditions, we are put under pressure by surrounding conditions, that is our lot on earth ... unless we live alone and self-sufficient there are always people and circumstances that create needs therefore indirect desires within us.

have a great day

link

answered 05 Jan '12, 14:23

blubird%20two's gravatar image

blubird two
(suspended)

edited 23 Jan '12, 23:56

Excelent answer Blubird and very true.

(06 Jan '12, 04:18) Paulina 1

Now the question is what is this inspirational fator.Is it strong enough that even in your greatest misery, even when the whole world stands against you sword in hand, you stick to this inspiration unperturbed in the midst of all that turmoil?

Well, we all talk too much.But those few who have acted have become Buddhas and Jesus.

(23 Jan '12, 01:06) Sandeep Kodam

@Sandeep Kodam - good point my friend ... yes those who have acted become enlightened ... have fun :)

(23 Jan '12, 04:56) blubird two

There is desire and than there is Desire with a capital D. One is ego based and the other is love based but without Desire we wouldn't be here.

When one helps others without wanting or desiring anything in return they do it from love and when one helpes others only to gain something from the experiance it comes from the Ego.

If the Budha or Jesus or whoever your saviour is had no desire to teach and help humanity we today wouldn't be having this discussion. The differance is that their Desire come from love and not the Ego.

God/Life/Love created us because of a desire for self expression so Desire is not wrong only understand that desire based on greed is not right and can cause suffering.

Any Desire that comes from love transends the Ego and becomes love.

link

answered 06 Jan '12, 04:43

Paulina%201's gravatar image

Paulina 1
8.7k320

1

Nice Paulina. Rather than desire based on greed not being right, can we say that a desire which includes attachment to any particular end result brings its own reward - suffering? :)

(06 Jan '12, 10:05) Eddie

(Sri Rama to Yoga Vasistha) 1. I see our vices like a flock of owls flying about in the region of our minds, under the darkness of our affections, and in the longsome night of our greed.

  1. I am parched by my anxieties like the wet clay under solar rays, infusing an inward heat in it by extraction of its soft moisture.

  2. My mind is like a vast and lonesome wilderness, covered under the mist of errors, and infested by the terrible fiend of desire is continually floundering about it.

(23 Jan '12, 02:05) Sandeep Kodam
  1. My wailings and tears serve only to expand and mature my anxiety, as the dews of night open and ripen the blossoms of beans and give them a bright golden color.

  2. Greed by raising expectations in men, serves only to whirl them about, as the vortex of the sea wallows the marine animals in it.

  3. The stream of worldly greed flows like a rapid current within the rock of my body, with precipitate force (in my actions), and loud resounding waves (of my speech).

(23 Jan '12, 02:05) Sandeep Kodam
  1. Our minds are driven by foul greed from one place to another, as the dusty dry hays are carried away by the winds, and as the Chátakas are impelled by thirst to fly about.

  2. It is greed which destroys all the good qualities and grace which we adopted to ourselves in good faith, just as the mischievous mouse severs the wires (of a musical instrument).

(23 Jan '12, 02:06) Sandeep Kodam
  1. We turn about upon the wheel of our cares, like withered leaves (floating) upon the water, and like dry grass uplifted by the wind, and as autumnal clouds (moving) in the sky.

  2. Being over powered by greed, we are disable to reach the goal (of perfection), as a bird entangled in the snare, is kept from its flight.

  3. I am so greatly burnt by the flame of greed, that I doubt whether this inflammation may be assuaged even by administration of nectar itself.

(23 Jan '12, 02:07) Sandeep Kodam
  1. We are pulled up and cast down again like a bucket in the well, by the string of greed(tied about our necks).

  2. Man is led about like a bullock of burden by his greed, which bends his heart as fast as the string does the beast, and which it is hard for him to break.

  3. As the huntress spreads her net to catch birds in it, so does our affection for our friends,wives and children stretch these snares to entrap us every day.

(23 Jan '12, 02:08) Sandeep Kodam
  1. Greed like a dark night terrifies even the wise, blindfolds the keen-sighted, and depresses the spirit of the happiest of men.

  2. Our appetite is as heinous as a serpent, soft to feel, but full of deadly poison, and bites us as soon as it is felt.

  3. It is also like a black sorceress that deludes men by her magic, but pierces him in his heart, and exposes him to danger afterwards.

(23 Jan '12, 02:08) Sandeep Kodam
  1. This body of ours shattered by our greed is like a worn out lute, fastened by arteries resembling the wires, but emitting no pleasing sound.

  2. Our greed is like the long fibered, dark and juicy poisonous creeper called Kaduka, that grows in the caverns of mountains, and maddens men by its flavor.

  3. Greed is as vain and empty, fruitless and aspiring, unpleasant and perilous, as the dry twig of a tree, which (bears no fruit or flower) but is hurtful with its prickly point.

(23 Jan '12, 02:09) Sandeep Kodam
  1. Venality is like a churlish old woman, who from the incontinence of her heart, courts the company of every man, without gaining the object of her desire.

  2. Greediness as an old actress plays her various parts in the vast theatre of world, in order to please the different tastes of her audience.

  3. Parsimony is as a poisonous plant growing in the wide wilderness of the world, bearing old age and infirmity as its flowers, and producing our troubles as its fruits.

(23 Jan '12, 02:09) Sandeep Kodam
  1. Our churlishnesss resembles an aged actress, attempting a manly feat she has not the strength to perform, yet keeping up the dance without pleasing (herself or anybody).

  2. Our fleeting thoughts are as fickle as peacocks, soaring over inaccessible heights under the clouds (of ignorance); but ceasing to fly in the day light (of reason).

  3. Greed is like a river in the rains, rising for a time with its rolling waves, and afterwards lying low in its empty bed.

(23 Jan '12, 02:09) Sandeep Kodam
  1. Greed is as inconstant as a female bird, which changes her mates at times, and quits the tree that no longer bears any fruit.

  2. The greedy are as unsteady as the flouncing monkey, which is never restive at any place, but moves to places impassable by others, and craving for fruits even when satisfied.

  3. The acts of greed are as inconstant as those of chance, both of which are ever on the alert, but never attended with their sequence.

(23 Jan '12, 02:09) Sandeep Kodam
  1. Our venality is like a black-bee sitting upon the lotus of our hearts, and thence making its rambles above, below and all about us in a moment.

  2. Of all worldly evils, greed is the source of the longest sorrow. She exposes to peril even the most secluded man.

  3. Greed like a group of clouds, is filled with a thick mist of error, obstructing the light of heaven, and causing a dull insensibility (in its possessor).

(23 Jan '12, 02:10) Sandeep Kodam
  1. Penury which seems to gird the breasts of worldly people with chains of gems and jewels, binds them as beasts with halters about the necks.

  2. Covetousness stretches itself long and wide and presents to us a variety of colors as the rainbow. It is equally unsubstantial and without any property as the iris, resting in vapour and vacuum and being but a shadow itself.

(23 Jan '12, 02:10) Sandeep Kodam
  1. It burns away our good qualities as electric fire does the hay; it numbs our good sense as the frost freezes the lotus; it grows our evils as autumn does the grass; and it increases our ignorance as the winter prolongs the night.

  2. Greediness is as an actress in the stage of the world; she is as a bird flying out of the nest of our houses; as a deer running about in the desert of our hearts; and as a lute making us sing and dance at its tune.

(23 Jan '12, 02:10) Sandeep Kodam
  1. Our desires like billows toss us about in the ocean of our earthly cares; they bind us fast to delusion as chains do the elephant. Like the ficus indicus they produce the roots of our regeneration, and like moon beams they put our budding sorrows to bloom.

  2. Greed the box bedecked with gems, filled with miseries, decrepitude and death, and is full of disorder and disasters like a mad drunken dance.

(23 Jan '12, 02:11) Sandeep Kodam
  1. Our wishes are sometimes as pure as light and at others as foul as darkness; now they are as clear as the milky way, and again as obscure as thickest mists.

  2. All our bodily troubles are avoided by our abstaining from greed, as we are freed from fear of night demons at the dispersion of darkness.

  3. So long do men remain in their state of (dead like) dumbness and mental delirium, as they are subject to the poisonous cholic of greed.

(23 Jan '12, 02:11) Sandeep Kodam
  1. Men may get rid of their misery by their being freed from anxieties. It is the abandonment of cares which is said to be the best remedy of greed.

  2. As the fishes in a pond fondly grasp the bait in expectation of a sop, so do the avaricious lay hold on anything, be it wood or stone or even a straw.

  3. Greed like an acute pain excites even the gravest of men to motion, just as the rays of the sun raise the lotus blossoms (above the water).

(23 Jan '12, 02:12) Sandeep Kodam
  1. It is compared with the bamboo in its length, hollowness, hard knots, and thorny prickles, and yet it is entertained in expectation of its yielding the manna and a pearly substance.

  2. Yet it is a wonder that high-minded men, have been able to cut off this almost unseverable knot of greed, by the glittering sword of reason:

  3. As neither the edge of the sword, nor the fire of lightening, nor the sparks of the redhot iron, are sharp enough to sever the keen greed seated in our hearts.

(23 Jan '12, 02:12) Sandeep Kodam
  1. It is like the flame of a lamp which is bright but blackening and acutely burning at its end. It is fed by the oily wicks (of years), is vivid in all, but never handled by anybody.

  2. Penury has the power of bemeaning the best of men to (the baseness of) straws in a moment, notwithstanding their wisdom, heroism and gravity in other respects.

(23 Jan '12, 02:12) Sandeep Kodam
  1. Greed is like the great valley of the Vindhyá hills, that is beset with deserts and impenetrable forests, is terrible and full of snares laid by the hunters, and filled with the dust and mist (of delusion).

  2. One single greed has everything in the world for its object, and though seated in the breast, it is imperceptible to all. It is as the undulating Milky Ocean in this fluctuating world, sweeping all things yet regaling mankind with its odorous waves.

(23 Jan '12, 02:12) Sandeep Kodam
1

This is a chapter from the Yoga Vasistha Maharamayana. So that is all about greed.Please do not underestimate it. You are lucky I had to copy paste all this.I'd be glad if you understand it well.

Thank you.

(23 Jan '12, 02:15) Sandeep Kodam

yathā bhūta ñāna dassana

(23 Jan '12, 02:36) white tiger

in which direction a fire goes when it has gone out?

(23 Jan '12, 02:37) white tiger

Is the absence of proof the proof of its absence?

(23 Jan '12, 03:05) Sandeep Kodam

nope in fact he could be right there. smile.

(26 Jan '12, 01:08) white tiger
showing 3 of 25 show 22 more comments

I tend to think that had we no desire we would be depressed. As someone depressed does not want to do anything not even move his/her own body.

Every action requires a desire. Think about the act of walking, you walk because of desire to get someplace or for exercise, maybe even to relax. There is a desire that is fueling the action of walking. We talk because we desire to be heard or we would not care to talk. Again depression is one area where you have no desire to talk or be heard, because you feel "What is the point."

So I do believe we can be desire-less however, in this lack of desire we also have a lack of action, because we don't care, we have no desire to act in any way.

link

answered 05 Jan '12, 18:00

Wade%20Casaldi's gravatar image

Wade Casaldi
35.0k11156

In my experience depressed people desire others to comfort them, thereby boosting what their ego wanted all along - attention.

(05 Jan '12, 23:55) Eddie
1

Eddie the last thing I want when I get into deep depression is attention. I just want to shut out the entire world like if I could just close myself in a little box away from the world and do absolutely nothing. That includes breathing but unfortunately that continues and so does the pain. BTW, Jai agrees and feels the same way...

(06 Jan '12, 03:43) Wade Casaldi
1

You are right Wade when depressed one has no desire for life and would wish when going to sleep to never wake up. That is a serious depression or more correctly Major depression. All Desire leaves and what is left is nothing more than a bottomless pit. Please seek help as it is out there.

(06 Jan '12, 04:28) Paulina 1
1

Thank you Paulina I am not in that now, but there have been times I was. You just sit and stare at a wall very many hours because time loses its meaning to you. Jai has been there too, we just wanted to point out the seriousness of the situation of having no desire. If you see a family member or friend is this bad he/she is not seeking enlightenment. The interesting thing is no one brought me out of those times but myself, sort of like I had to have a shutdown period before reseting myself back to nothing wrong.

(06 Jan '12, 08:57) Wade Casaldi

Personally I've never been seriously depressed. I was simply referring to my experience of depressed people asking me to listen to their pain, something I refuse to do. I guess there are different kinds of depression...

(06 Jan '12, 10:11) Eddie
1

Yes Eddie when you get to that level it is more like a self induced comatose state. People could yell at you, shake you, wave their hands in front of your face and you don't respond. I am one of the lucky ones that can get to that state and eventually come back out others need serious medical help and some kind of prescription. All systems shut down except life support when you are in that state there is even no thought. Watch the movie What Dreams May Come, that really sums up that level of depression when you see what happens to Robin Williams wife.

(06 Jan '12, 13:55) Wade Casaldi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k0RzhVJSxE for you wade do you think jesus add a desire in that or did he do just what was right? did he have the desire to stone her? or to stone them?

(06 Jan '12, 16:01) white tiger
1

@ White Tiger, Jesus desire was to do the Father's will and love God and all his children as God loves him.

(06 Jan '12, 16:10) Wade Casaldi

so wade what you are telling me is that he was under god will to show the other children the example? but do you think he has desire to take part in sin? or desire to not take part in sin? or was he just doing what was right with out desire?

(06 Jan '12, 16:35) white tiger

I believe not because he was awake. It is like knowing the consequences would not be pleasing. Example a child desires to feel a flame from a candle. Once burned he has never that desire again. Had this child full understanding of the pain from this desire he would not have had that desire in the first place. So yes I believe Jesus desires were of a higher platu than that of most human kind.

(06 Jan '12, 19:46) Wade Casaldi

well wade that child that is jesus knee it all along he knee that the other children did not know what they where doing he even asked god to not make him taste this cup and said that he still would do has his will dictated(god). so you cannot say that jesus has desire for people to kill him? is desire was to stay alive. is task was of being example to the world so eventually they would understand and follow is example.

(06 Jan '12, 21:45) white tiger
  1. He said, "A [...] person owned a vineyard and rented it to some farmers, so they could work it and he could collect its crop from them. He sent his slave so the farmers would give him the vineyard's crop. They grabbed him, beat him, and almost killed him, and the slave returned and told his master. His master said, 'Perhaps he didn't know them.' He sent another slave, and the farmers beat that one as well. Then the master sent his son and said, 'Perhaps they'll show my son some respect.'
(06 Jan '12, 22:06) white tiger

Because the farmers knew that he was the heir to the vineyard, they grabbed him and killed him. Anyone here with two ears had better listen! "http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gosthom.html

(06 Jan '12, 22:06) white tiger

Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

(06 Jan '12, 22:22) white tiger

Interesting points White Tiger, way off base from where I, Jai and Paulina were orginially coming from with my answer but notheless I believe this would be better served as its own question. Good points Jesus was tempted in the desert so had he no desire he could not have been tempted. He did ask for the cup to be removed from him, I have to think that this shows there is the higher desire of the Holy Spirit and the lower of the phsyical body. I do think it would be a good question instead of lost here it a string of replies.

(06 Jan '12, 22:22) Wade Casaldi

"You don't know what you are asking," Jesus said to them. "Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?" "We can," they answered.http://bible.cc/matthew/20-22.htm

(06 Jan '12, 22:28) white tiger

well i find it even better being here in those string wade it feel more like going deeper sharing with each other. then just being a voice that cry in the desert or wilderness.

(06 Jan '12, 22:45) white tiger

the inside and the outside of the cup are from the same wade. the outside will die but not the inside. but every one would like it that the outside and inside would stay in harmony for ever. but the children do not know what they are doing. so be whole and righteous.

(06 Jan '12, 23:04) white tiger

just by faith.

(06 Jan '12, 23:11) white tiger
showing 3 of 20 show 17 more comments

Desireless action. That would be force. To be forced into action. Slavery would be an example of desireless action. Work may also be considered a desireless action depending on the actioneer.

link

answered 21 Jan '12, 18:14

Constantine's gravatar image

Constantine
(suspended)

well constantine. would you shit in your bed? or would you get up and go to the bathroom? you do it because it is the right thing to do? other wise you will have to clean up your mess. well if i tell you that every thing is your home and every one else is your brother and sister. if you do something to some one else it comes back to you eventually. but if you act only of ego to get something that is called desire. one way or the other you still have free will and are responsible for it.

(21 Jan '12, 20:44) white tiger

Well white tiger, that would all depend if your wearing a pair of Depends® and if you have the ability to get out of bed. Ego can be used responsibly or irresponsibly. Sometimes ego is triggered by a challenge. Once that happens you must question, do you feel challenged?

(21 Jan '12, 22:02) Constantine

well i do not feel challenged i could care less i have nothing to prove. has for ego mine is under control. how many people can say that? it is because you do not know me. i am someone very quiet that listen and observe people. i help people when i can. yes people might pass judgement that i am strange. but to me when they judge others and are run by their ego they are the strange one. is it not strange that they would not accept what they do to others if they where the other and still they do

(21 Jan '12, 22:45) white tiger

it? is this world perfect? why people fight each other? it is all out of ego (money power desire etc.) yes even religion; but they never understood that their worst ennemy is them self. all that hate anger judgement etc. comes from them self and not from other people. you will say yes but someone can attack me it is not my self that do this. will this is not judgement it is a fact. but even if you get angry (ego) and kill him you go in prison. so is it not better to know our self

(21 Jan '12, 23:01) white tiger

and be responsible. or do you prefer to let ego run wild and have this result: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWQKOj9Sxkg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs3JE4WRL-8&feature=related or maybe this way would be better?; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOcey9NxMF0&feature=related

(21 Jan '12, 23:21) white tiger
1

Hi all, I think you have gone over the top and lost any point you were trying to make.

(21 Jan '12, 23:25) Tom

There is no top or bottom to conversation. The top your referring to is your own misunderstanding of the discussion. This can reflect your intelligence of the matter or can simply be a matter of humble interest, but that would depend on your approach. Comment 1 of 2

(22 Jan '12, 11:46) Constantine

As you've said, you can care less. This does not mean you do not care. The fact that you've responded shows you care. Caring for your perception is an act of defending your perception. It is an act of survival. If I were to belittle or destroy your perception that would leave you with very little to believe in and the mind won't have that. The mind as well as the entire body is built to survive. This is why you see destruction all around you. Comment 2 of 2

(22 Jan '12, 11:46) Constantine
1

Hey Tom! Don’t mess with a good thing. These two opponents are evenly matched and perfect for each other. Their dialog is far more entertaining that reading more questions and answers on ...sigh...LOA.

(22 Jan '12, 12:03) The Traveller

constantine i told you before i do not believe. i have faith. i have free will and i am responsible of it so has you. you cannot belittle or destroy my perception. and that is your ego speaking by the way. the spirit will live with this world or with out this world. i have hope that the humanity will use their free will and do the right thing.

(22 Jan '12, 15:54) white tiger
1

Faith is belief and we all have free will. Whether you are responsible with it will always be up for question. The end of your faith is the belief that you will ultimately be judged or questioned by God for your misuse of free will.

(22 Jan '12, 17:08) Constantine

constantine belief is belief and faith is faith. look in the bible.

(22 Jan '12, 17:34) white tiger

How about you define for us what your definition is of belief and faith out of the 66 books contained in the Holy Bible? While your at it make it a point to share with us what Bible interpretation your definitively speaking from and what verses delcare your understanding of faith/belief.

(22 Jan '12, 18:07) Constantine

http://www.kingsingles.com/bible_solutions/faith.htm this might help you. faith is from the heart. belief is from the mind. and belief can change. it is like comparing apple and orange. similar but not quite the same.

(22 Jan '12, 18:16) white tiger

However, even educated people, well aware of the process by which beliefs form, still strongly cling to their beliefs, and act on those beliefs even against their own self-interest. In Anna Rowley's Leadership Theory, she states "You want your beliefs to change. It's proof that you are keeping your eyes open, living fully, and welcoming everything that the world and people around you can teach you." This means that peoples' beliefs should evolve as they gain new experiences.

(22 Jan '12, 18:25) white tiger

The heart only pumps blood through our body. The heart your referring to is the moral of a person, the spirit of a person, which is the emotional state of a person. The mind, which is our brain is our central processor. With this mechanism we are able to willfully dictate our faith, our belief and things that you can masterfully debate on Inward Quest. Your memory, which is also part of your brain allows you to remember that link you shared with us and to remember the faith that you believe in.

(22 Jan '12, 18:25) Constantine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief People may adopt the beliefs of a charismatic leader, even if those beliefs fly in the face of all previous beliefs, and produce actions that are clearly not in their own self-interest.[8] Is belief voluntary? Rational individuals need to reconcile their direct reality with any said belief; therefore, if belief is not present or possible, it reflects the fact that contradictions were necessarily overcome using cognitive dissonance.

(22 Jan '12, 18:26) white tiger

example about faith. if i know you and can trust in you and i have faith that you can go and do something you never done before. you will do it. but if i only believe according to my mind that you can do something and i do not trust in you. there is big chance that you will not do it.

(22 Jan '12, 18:36) white tiger

If I were to propose a question, what is the mind of your heart or what is the mind of an organ? Logically the mind of your heart is to pump blood. The mind of an organ is to complete it's function. Once the function of the organ is over the organ ceases to exist. This does not mean the heart has a mind or an organ has a mind of it's own. Where in the heart do you find a brain or where in an organ do you find a brain? You don't, nor do you find faith pumping through your vains.

(22 Jan '12, 18:37) Constantine
1

Your faith does not define what a person will do. Your faith defines what you will do. In the same way, your belief does not define what a person will do. Your belief defines what you will do.

(22 Jan '12, 18:48) Constantine

You can think, I have faith that a mountain will move or our Lord and Savior will return, but your faith does not force the mountain to move nor does it force His return. Your faith shall be counted as a credit to your belief, but only if you withhold it, because even faith can fail. Sadly enough, if your memory fails, so does your faith, but no worries, because the Lord is the judge over all things and He is well aware of the intricate details of our inward functions, even when we are not.

(22 Jan '12, 18:56) Constantine

soul(mind and heart) mind: knowing knowledge belief perception. hearth: feeling emotion faith. also mind and brain are 2 different things. brain and hearth are 2 organs but you see things only for the words and use your logic on it. and it gives the result it gives. logic is the beguinning of wisdom not the end.

(22 Jan '12, 18:56) white tiger

you know that feeling affect you? can you mesure them? what do they look like? how heavy are they? how much do they weight?

(22 Jan '12, 18:59) white tiger

Wisdom has no beginning or end. Logic is based on the individual. Logic to a child would not be the same as logic to an adult, nor would my logic be the same as yours. That is why you continue to defend your spectrum of truth as I continue to defend mines. Our viewers will decide for themselves what makes more sense to them, or what sounds more logical.

(22 Jan '12, 19:06) Constantine

Even a child can debate over a matter. That doesn't mean the child has grasped the matter. That just means the child has formed a view on the matter and is ready to discuss it.

(22 Jan '12, 19:24) Constantine

To expound on my interpretation of desireless action, a slave would not desire to work for his slave master, but a slave chooses to work to avoid punishment. The desire is not to undergo punishment. Like wise, an employee that desires not to work, works for other reasons greater than the desire not to work. Therefore, desire is always present.

(22 Jan '12, 19:55) Constantine

constantine you can believe what you want it does not make it true some belief are true some are not and some will change. has for faith affecting other people yes it does. but you are not at that level yet. you are still in belief.

(22 Jan '12, 23:21) white tiger

has for defending your opinion and seing it only the way you see it right now you are right that is exactly what you do.

(22 Jan '12, 23:24) white tiger
showing 3 of 28 show 25 more comments

How could you not find it in the Gita? Go back and verify...

The whole of Karma Yoga is about desireless action

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answered 22 Jan '12, 15:41

Sandeep%20Kodam's gravatar image

Sandeep Kodam
613

That is true no one desires the pay back of karma but it does come back on us. Even Jesus taught that as we plant so will we reap.

(22 Jan '12, 19:07) Wade Casaldi

Hey, I had some problem with posting the comment here.So,I posted a separate comment somewhere here.

Yes,you are right.But that is not the whole picture, is it???

(23 Jan '12, 01:08) Sandeep Kodam

Desire in this context means attachment; fixation or be controlled by some thing outside oneself resulting in a chaotic lifestyle. This is different from desire. Desire is necessary for procreation. It is a part of us that we must be aware of and manage in a different way.

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answered 23 Jan '12, 01:23

The%20Knights%20Alchemy's gravatar image

The Knights Alchemy
3.0k16

I like this chapter in the Tao Te Ching

Tao Te Ching - Lao Tzu - chapter 37

Tao abides in non-action,
Yet nothing is left undone.
If kings and lords observed this,
The ten thousand things would develop naturally.
If they still desired to act,
They would return to the simplicity of formless substance.
Without form there is no desire.
Without desire there is tranquility.

And in this way all things would be at peace

So we need don't desire for our own "tranquility" but even if we don't desire, things work out anyways .
peace

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answered 25 Jan '12, 08:51

ursixx's gravatar image

ursixx
20.7k931

edited 24 Nov '12, 04:18

without desires there is tranquility.

That does not mean we need desire for our own "tranquility", it means the opposite. May be you are reading a 'not' in there where there is none.

(30 Jan '12, 12:37) DesirelessAbundance
1

@DesirelessAbundance I know this is an old comment, I think I missed a don't.

(24 Nov '12, 04:17) ursixx
1

@ursixx lol oh well better late than never. ;)

(24 Nov '12, 14:45) Grace

i will say this where does desire comes from from the ego. how many things you have desire in your life and are you yet satisfied? when you see someone in trouble that needs your help is it desire that will make you help him? or will you help him with out anny desire because it is the right thing to do? the journey is more important then the target. experience and enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=objVveZlpUs

13 Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+4&version=NIV

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answered 05 Jan '12, 21:07

white%20tiger's gravatar image

white tiger
19.7k1744

edited 06 Jan '12, 22:32

1

If you choose to help or to do anything at all is that not still desire?

(05 Jan '12, 23:57) Eddie
1

Very nice White Tiger. To help is a desire that comes from love and is not Ego desire.

(06 Jan '12, 04:49) Paulina 1

nope eddie it is not a desire at all. you might not event want to help them because you know they are still under the ego and do not know what they are doing. but you will make your choice and what is right. if they do not take this chance or loose this opportunity to bad for them it is their own choice. every one has free will it is for them to use it the best they can. experience and enjoy.

(06 Jan '12, 15:36) white tiger

You guys are sniffing around for turds. Just be happy!

(06 Jan '12, 23:03) Tom

i think they are disturb tom. yep they should just experience and enjoy. all has been reveal in truth. but yet they doubt where is their faith? i do not even want to be know. i shared with them all truth. and it did not cost them anny thing.

(07 Jan '12, 04:04) white tiger

@wt, when you say things like too bad for them you exude an air of superiority. Do you not realize that there is no good and bad, it's all a matter of perspective. In the no-time of reality, everyone's already a fully enlightened master. We don't know what another came here to experience and achieve, nor the timing that most suits them...

(25 Jan '12, 06:21) Eddie

eddie my friend if you see it like this you do not understand yet. you think it is about superiority but i tell you it is about truth. every one has free will. you can bring the horse to the source but you cannot force the horse to drink from the source. if the horse die from lack of water by is choice what can you do? so even if you would like to use your free will to save the horse if the horse does not want to drink it is not your problem let it be.

(26 Jan '12, 01:21) white tiger
showing 3 of 7 show 4 more comments

Yes, desire-less action is possible... We (people) do it everyday, when we wake up and go to a job that we despise, or stick it out in a relationship that is no longer satisfying.

However, I believe that in order lead a fulfilling life... Desire is absolutely necessary for any action to produce desired results...

I like to think of my desires as the energy of God seeking expression through me... Besides, aren't all of our desires a desire for improvement???

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answered 26 Jan '12, 07:07

1Shonta's gravatar image

1Shonta
1819

desire is of the earth,
while mind is of the spirit.
while here on earth our goal
is to discern desirable impulse
and sort them out before choices

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answered 26 Jan '12, 21:13

fred's gravatar image

fred
15.7k36

1

@fred - your poetry flows through the heart my friend

(26 Jan '12, 23:26) blubird two

The problem is with the english translation of 'niskama karma' into 'desireless action'.The word 'kama' has a much wider sense although it loosely translates to desire.Don't take anything literally, take the spirit of the teaching, reason and test it and after verifying it with our own experience, accept it.Otherwise, it's just baby prattle.

Whosoever was confounded by the Gita, please read it carefully.It is not a lame theory.People have lived by the Gita for ages and ages here in India, even before the Gita came.

Quoting from the Bhagavad Gita, chapter III, The Way of Action

1. By non-performance of work none reaches worklessness; by merely giving up action no one attains to perfection.

2. Verily none can ever rest for even an instant, without performing action; for all are made to act, helplessly indeed, by the Gunas, born of Prakriti.

3. He, who restraining the organs of action, sits revolving in the mind, thoughts regarding objects of senses, he, of deluded understanding, is called a hypocrite.

4. But, who, controlling the senses by the mind, unattached, directs his organs of action to the path of work, he, O Arjuna, excels.

5. Do thou perform obligatory action; for action is superior to inaction, and even the bare maintenance of thy body would not be possible if thou art inactive.

6. The world is bound by actions other than those performed for the sake of Yajna; do thou therefore, O son of Kunti, perform action for Yajna alone, devoid of attachment.

P.S.: What is with this thread not allowing more than 10 characters in the comments section.Is the site like this?

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answered 23 Jan '12, 00:58

Sandeep%20Kodam's gravatar image

Sandeep Kodam
613

1

I think you misread - comment has to be at least 10 characters - think they give you 500 and if you are not finished - you can add another comment.

(23 Jan '12, 01:21) ele

oh,yes yes...but that doesn't work for a direct copy & paste! So there is still a flaw...

The thrill of finding bugs for a compsciite!!!

(23 Jan '12, 01:35) Sandeep Kodam
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