There is strong evidence supporting the fact that there is wide use of magic in churches, especially aimed to evangelize and chatelize.

In his book ' The Dark Wind Witches and the Concept of Evil', author Gary R. Varnar stated: "The difference between pagan spell-craft and magic and that employed by the Christian Church is simply a matter of terminology. Christian magic is referred to as “ritual power” and acceptable while perhaps identical rituals by other peoples are ''witchcraft'' and ''sorcery''. " Popes and ministers have been using (manipulating) magic and Gospel illusion to influence Christianity, or in other terms delude people.

Here are some aspects or rather signs that are affect of Gospel illusion:

A sudden and unexplained aroused interest in Christianity.

A sudden attraction and appeal to Christian popes, churches,etc.

Delusions and Hallucinations of seeing the Cross.

Excessive obsession with Christianity.

These are the reported signs that were taken into account of those suspected targets of Gospel illusion.

Why do some church ministers go to the extremes of using magic to influence Christianity?

Could this suggest that perhaps the church feels threatened by a rise of another religion and wants to "contain" this rise or expansion?.

This is not to be taken as an attack to Christians in general, so please do not feel offended and let's make useful discussion to reach to its bottom line. I consider it a very important discussion because it relates to how magic can influence not only political views but also beliefs, of course raising awarness of such a topic is very crucial.

asked 02 Jun '12, 04:08

springflower's gravatar image


edited 02 Jun '12, 09:46

Dollar%20Bill's gravatar image

Dollar Bill

This is not to be taken as an attack to christians in general

Similar to yourself, I come from an Islamic background but, unlike yourself, I classify that as an "accident of birth" - though there are no accidents :) - and I am not at all interested in that religion.

I'm also not interested in Christianity either however even I think your question is a little offensive to Christians ...and also to those who choose to engage in Magick-based practices. It sounds like you don't actually understand what Magick is.

let's make useful discussion to reach to it's bottomline

What's useful about tarnishing the belief systems of others?

All belief systems have validity, including yours.

There's no absolute truth. You create your own truth based upon what you choose to believe.

If a belief system works for someone, including yourself, then there is value in it and that's that. I don't see it as anyone else's role to decide that something is appropriate or not appropriate...that's up to them to decide for themselves.

While you are certainly free to ask fault-finding and apparently negative questions like this one regarding another religion that you obviously don't agree with, you might find it to be of more value to look within yourself as to why you feel the need to do so.


answered 02 Jun '12, 05:42

Stingray's gravatar image


edited 02 Jun '12, 05:44


this website is called inwardquest afterall, right?

(02 Jun '12, 06:04) springflower

The FAQs indicate that all spiritual questions are welcome. However there is emphasis placed on "how" these questions are asked and answered.

The IQ members can answer to whether it is appropriate or not by their voting and comments.

(02 Jun '12, 09:20) Dollar Bill

Like your answer Stingray.

(03 Jun '12, 02:54) Paulina 1
showing 2 of 3 show 1 more comments

First of all I need to make this very clear, there is a big difference between Christianity and Catholicism which is really what your question is about from all your writing above.

Catholicism does have many rituals and by appearance they seem very similar to high magick. This is way different from what our Lord Jesus taught and did. To understand why this is we have to go back in time to when the Roman Emperor declared this new religion against all the old Gods religion.

Here fits two very old philosophies one is "If you can't beat them join them." And two is "The surest way to destroy something is from the inside outwards."

Now the people of Rome many were very much into the Pagan ways of worship so was the Emperor himself so now he started this new Religion by what are the ways and rituals? He simply changed the names and kept the old ways and rituals so now instead of a Goddess religion it became a Mother of God religion. This is all in the counsel of Nicene you can read about. Anyway the result was a big religion actually pretty similar to what Jesus was trying to show we didn't need.

Christianity on the other hand is a very personal relationship with God, there is no ritual and we do not need priest and saints to talk with God. Our pastors work hard at getting that message across to us that because of Jesus dying for us we now have a direct link to God ourselves. Just talk with God, we pray to God but as well talk with God like he is our best friend always there by our side. The other thing is that the average Christian having this connection with God can heal and cast out sickness and demons just as the Apostles did through Jesus name. The other thing is the average Christian can even face the Devil himself and command him gone, he has no fear knowing God is with him! But this is the hard part of the pastors trying to convince the average Christian, through our movies and books of the world we are taught to fear evil even be terrified of it! But Jesus did not teach this, evil is terrified of us when we know ourselves through Jesus as the sons and daughters of God we are united with God as one.

By the way being Christian I am not offended by this question. I thank God for it! It gives me a chance to stand up for Christ and Christianity to clear misunderstandings that may lead people away from Christ.

To be fair there is the Religion of Christianity however true Christianity or (being Christ like is not religion but relationship with God) This is another thing that pastors have a hard time getting across to the congregation do not fall into religion like the Pharisees did but have a close relationship with God.

Anything can be used to further God's Kingdom on Earth and this is one. Thank you Springflower. :-)


answered 02 Jun '12, 11:56

Wade%20Casaldi's gravatar image

Wade Casaldi

edited 02 Jun '12, 12:26

wade, i think you need to be a little more impartial and seek the truth for what it really is. we sometimes tend to insist that we are totally and completely right and sometimes forget to seek guidance from Allah, God, The Guide.

(02 Jun '12, 14:17) springflower

Islam respects and honors all prophets and we have many similar points we share if you make a comparative study, we also as muslims believe in the second coming of Propet Isa (in the end of times), but we also believe that Allah has saved him and he wasn't crufied , rather he was raised up to Allah and ascended (( And surely they slew him not nor crucify him. But Allah (God) raised him unto Himself. ))

(02 Jun '12, 14:18) springflower

@springflower You attack my religion and using facts from a different religion as your basis, (Christianity has no Pope). I try to set the record straight from these misunderstandings and you tell me I need to be impartial? I was enjoying our conversations of exchange but apparently you were not. By the way your first point you received for this question was from me.

(03 Jun '12, 06:03) Wade Casaldi

Wade, I find your comparison between High Magick and Catholicism fascinating & very well thought out! Also your ideas that Christ had no rituals. He didn't. No Theology. He was simple and direct.

However, religion and how it is practiced, is a very personal choice. I feel that you are saying this. Does meaning for some people, get lost in rituals? For me, it does not as I see everything as new, meaningful & try to immerse myself in the "now-ness".

We all have the right to choose our path

(03 Jun '12, 09:44) Dollar Bill

As a Christian, I am not offended by springflower's viewpoints. She has her Truth and I have mine. She does not attack my religion. She adds a perspective that I may or may not find useful. So do you.

Relationships help me define myself.

I am more curious as to why you make the assertion "Christianity has no pope" indicating that Catholics are not Christians?

(03 Jun '12, 09:56) Dollar Bill

@Dollar Bill I was just trying to explain and clarify something that I saw severely askew and could lead thousands away from God. "If that is what Christianity is like I don't want any part of that!" That is the wrong message and false as well built on confusion and assumption. Yes there are a ton of denominations and many do not agree with each other on specifics. The simpler and basic a church the closer it is to how Jesus did things.

(03 Jun '12, 12:33) Wade Casaldi

We have gained the whole Kingdom of God because Jesus died for us on the cross, went to hell for three days and rose back from death. He conquered everything for us and paid for us that we gain everything, more power command and authority than we could ever imagine, more love, compassion and caring too.

(03 Jun '12, 12:37) Wade Casaldi

Now a comparison with Catholicism and Christianity. Catholicism you need to pray to a saint to intercede for you or to the priest to pray for you because you are not good enough to talk with God yourself. Christianity you pray directly to God through Jesus name. He died so we could have that direct link. Catholicism Jesus is still on the cross as can be seen on all crosses. Christianity will usually have an empty cross because Jesus has risen. Cath Mother Mary is highest. Chri God the Father is

(03 Jun '12, 12:45) Wade Casaldi

You qouted that: "We have gained the whole Kingdom of God because Jesus died for us on the cross, went to hell for three days and rose back from death. He conquered everything for us..."

i don't like that, i dont want to belive that. i believe that God is high and Exalted. He created us and He created everything. He gifted us with minds to think , reflect and reach an anology.

(11 Jun '12, 06:51) springflower

Even faith and being close to God needs reasons, i need to know God so that i could love him. i need to grasp the wisdom so i could properly worship Him, i need to manifest His Magesty and Might so that i could Magnify Him in my heart and fear Him. i need to know His attributes so that i could Love Him. i need to learn , i need to inquire, i need to know.i need to acknowledge His blessings to express my gratitude.

(11 Jun '12, 06:51) springflower

Otherwise, we are making faith, which is beautiful in its essence, something enforcing and unbearable.this approach you are making shuns or rather blocks the mind from explore and enjoy this profound and wonderful experience although this was its ultimate purpose and significance, it is the reason why Allah gave us minds. dont make an obstacle to accomplishing true faith. Lets not get deviated from our real purpose in life, its what gives it value.

(11 Jun '12, 06:52) springflower

@springflower Everything you said after my quote Christians and Muslims agree with. We just disagree on whether Jesus was given as the final sacrifice, sinless and perfect he became the final sacrifice for all humanity or as you say no, no one is saved from the devil he still owns all our souls from winning Adam and Eve. I believe I am saved, that Jesus heals anything I need as he has already conquered it but that is a Christian belief. Maybe you heal and cast out demons in the name of Mohamed?

(11 Jun '12, 14:42) Wade Casaldi

" Maybe you heal and cast out demons in the name of Mohamed? " - no, but in the name of Allah alone.

(18 Jun '12, 04:11) springflower

@springflower Thank you, I like this open communication it leads to greater understanding of each other. :-)

(18 Jun '12, 18:37) Wade Casaldi
showing 2 of 14 show 12 more comments

Interesting discussion but what exactly do you mean by Magic? If Magic works then it has to adhere to some spiritual principles that are eternal, impersonal and metaphysically correct. Magic can't work outside these spiritual principals. Maybe its packaged in a different way thats outside what the traditional church considers normal. If you have to use Magic to work with The Law of Attraction...more power to you....but you're not going outside to some different source. I don't fault one religion or another. I was raised in the Methodist Church growing up and I didn't learn "squat" about spiritual principals that would work in my life. I was taught to be a complient tribal member...that Jesus died for my sins(still don't understand this)...and the Church will do all the heavy thinking for you. When I look back on it....I probably could have used a little Magic in my life.


answered 02 Jun '12, 06:46

aquakid's gravatar image


The Christian followers that I know personally are very good, kind, loving and respectful people. They accept everyone for who they are and never try to change others, only themselves. So, I just want to point out that many Christians who truly believe in their religion and try to follow their material would not do this. I think many of them are good people and that, the basis of your question should be: do any religions use magic? Because, using magic to try and gain followers is something idividual, and every religion has had people who have tried to use some sort of method to force others to follow their material.

If magic is something you are worried about, consider comtemplating:

Is whats happening real or am I fooling myself? Can someone really force my own willpower? What is magic even?

Have you ever truly wondered what the limit of each individual's power is?

Did you know that when you touch something hot and it burns you, the feeling of 'pain' came from within your mind? The hot thing didn't make you feel pain, your brain told you to feel pain.

IMHO, magic is nothing to worry about. I have a relative who put spells on me constantly (out of love, apparently :)) but they have never worked. Im actually the one everyone says needs to play the lottery because Im always "beating the odds".

It's enough proof for me. The only people I see affected by it are the ones that think it's real.


answered 03 Jun '12, 01:14

LapisLazuli's gravatar image


@LapisLazuli thank you much agreed, springflow attacks Christianity then peppers her attack with facts from Catholicism as her basis. This clearly shows she does even know the difference between a Christian and a Catholic or Christianity and Catholicism let alone Christianity and Magick which the question was supposed about. I try to defend Christianity and she slams me saying I need to be impartial. Oh well as Jesus says blessed are those persecuted for my name. :-)

(03 Jun '12, 06:23) Wade Casaldi

please no need to be offended and get defensive, iam not aiming to attack the teachings religion such as valuing human eings being good to neighbours,, these are all also part of my beliefs , as a muslim i believe in all te prophets sent by Allah, and all the revealed books.

(03 Jun '12, 13:00) springflower

However i also analyzed that many ofthepriests and ministers as well as popes make many unaccepted acts aiming towards 'expanding' the such which involve manipulating people and making illusions and other decceptions. this does not necessarly imply on all of them but a big majority. i feel determined to bring such a topic into discussion because its significantly relates to many aspects of our lives and i believe such important information should be disclosed and revealed

(03 Jun '12, 13:08) springflower

I wasnt offended, just offering a different viewpoint. I just wanted to point out that it's the individuals trying to force others (from all religions) and not the religion itself. I also wanted to say that magic only works as far as each person thinks it does. But, that's just me. Im not saying it shouldnt be discussed, just giving my take on it. :)

(03 Jun '12, 14:46) LapisLazuli
showing 2 of 4 show 2 more comments

As a Christian, I don't find your question at all offensive. It is merely your viewpoint. I respect the viewpoints of others. It is only when others, and I am not saying you are doing this, when others try to use their viewpoint as a club to coerce people into "following" their viewpoint that I quit listening. I am no longer interested in opening those doors.;jsessionid=98E7CFF46DEA6082205C9ADBACC85403

I am familiar with various forms of WICCA (Craft of the Wise) mostly Celtic. In the basic teachings there is nothing I find negative. The concepts of "witchcraft" as being a negative religion are unfounded.

A primary teaching of WICCA is that whatever you do, or want to do to others, you keep the original and can, at best send a pale copy to others. Your intentions come back to you at seven times the power you sent them out. Another example of the LOA, and this is understood by the intelligent practitioners of any religion or philosophy!

I think that any misunderstood cause-effects can be termed "Magic".

Stage Magic is an illusion of something that appears to defy the laws of Space-Time. Pull a chandelier out of a walnut. Make a lion or a Lear Jet vanish. But to the Magician who knows the Illusion, there is no magic. The "show" is done to entertain audiences.**

Magick, as Stingray describes it, can be a way to influence others to get particular results that could be considered positive or negative.

It seems that you, @springflower, could be referring to Magick.

You could equally point to Islamic examples in Indonesia (except Bali which is more Hindi), the Philippines and other areas where "different", perhaps less "orthodox" versions of Islam are practiced. I am sure you are aware of these.

Though my childhood background is one of Christianity, I am open to other religions as I see great beauty in the basic similarities in all of them when studied in depth.

I am turning my attention to studying Islam. I feel it is a deep, powerful religion that has great beauty. I have a close friend in Mindanao, Philippines, Putri, a Moro, who is helping me. I also want to know more about the more fundamentalist Islam.

I am saddened that Islam has been tarnished by the horrible actions of a few extremist radicals. The same happens in any religion, including Christianity, when a few people step outside the basic tenets and decides THEY know, and will enforce ugliness in the name of that (whichever) religion.

By the way, if you see @white tiger, please give him a warm "Hello" from @Dollar Bill!


answered 02 Jun '12, 09:01

Dollar%20Bill's gravatar image

Dollar Bill

edited 02 Jun '12, 09:44

@Dollar Bill - You're saying that @springflower is @white tiger?

(02 Jun '12, 10:37) Stingray

Stingray, I don't know. I really wouldn't say.

(02 Jun '12, 11:24) Dollar Bill

iam not @white tiger, my username is springflower, iam a muslim lady, i suppose white tiger is a man. why would i want to disguise myself anyway.

(02 Jun '12, 14:05) springflower

thank you for your respectful answer and useful feedback @dollar Bill

(02 Jun '12, 14:19) springflower

@springflower not saying you are @white tiger. Don't know if WT is male or female. I was only remarking if you knew him/her as I sense a certain related vibration, though he is Christian. I like you both.

(03 Jun '12, 10:01) Dollar Bill
showing 2 of 5 show 3 more comments
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Asked: 02 Jun '12, 04:08

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Last updated: 18 Jun '12, 18:37

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