There is strong evidence supporting the fact that there is wide use of magic in churches, especially aimed to evangelize and chatelize.
In his book ' The Dark Wind Witches and the Concept of Evil', author Gary R. Varnar stated: "The difference between pagan spell-craft and magic and that employed by the Christian Church is simply a matter of terminology. Christian magic is referred to as “ritual power” and acceptable while perhaps identical rituals by other peoples are ''witchcraft'' and ''sorcery''. " Popes and ministers have been using (manipulating) magic and Gospel illusion to influence Christianity, or in other terms delude people.
Here are some aspects or rather signs that are affect of Gospel illusion:
A sudden and unexplained aroused interest in Christianity.
A sudden attraction and appeal to Christian popes, churches,etc.
Delusions and Hallucinations of seeing the Cross.
Excessive obsession with Christianity.
These are the reported signs that were taken into account of those suspected targets of Gospel illusion.
Why do some church ministers go to the extremes of using magic to influence Christianity?
Could this suggest that perhaps the church feels threatened by a rise of another religion and wants to "contain" this rise or expansion?.
This is not to be taken as an attack to Christians in general, so please do not feel offended and let's make useful discussion to reach to its bottom line. I consider it a very important discussion because it relates to how magic can influence not only political views but also beliefs, of course raising awarness of such a topic is very crucial.
Similar to yourself, I come from an Islamic background but, unlike yourself, I classify that as an "accident of birth" - though there are no accidents :) - and I am not at all interested in that religion.
I'm also not interested in Christianity either however even I think your question is a little offensive to Christians ...and also to those who choose to engage in Magick-based practices. It sounds like you don't actually understand what Magick is.
What's useful about tarnishing the belief systems of others?
All belief systems have validity, including yours.
There's no absolute truth. You create your own truth based upon what you choose to believe.
If a belief system works for someone, including yourself, then there is value in it and that's that. I don't see it as anyone else's role to decide that something is appropriate or not appropriate...that's up to them to decide for themselves.
While you are certainly free to ask fault-finding and apparently negative questions like this one regarding another religion that you obviously don't agree with, you might find it to be of more value to look within yourself as to why you feel the need to do so.
First of all I need to make this very clear, there is a big difference between Christianity and Catholicism which is really what your question is about from all your writing above.
Catholicism does have many rituals and by appearance they seem very similar to high magick. This is way different from what our Lord Jesus taught and did. To understand why this is we have to go back in time to when the Roman Emperor declared this new religion against all the old Gods religion.
Here fits two very old philosophies one is "If you can't beat them join them." And two is "The surest way to destroy something is from the inside outwards."
Now the people of Rome many were very much into the Pagan ways of worship so was the Emperor himself so now he started this new Religion by what are the ways and rituals? He simply changed the names and kept the old ways and rituals so now instead of a Goddess religion it became a Mother of God religion. This is all in the counsel of Nicene you can read about. Anyway the result was a big religion actually pretty similar to what Jesus was trying to show we didn't need.
Christianity on the other hand is a very personal relationship with God, there is no ritual and we do not need priest and saints to talk with God. Our pastors work hard at getting that message across to us that because of Jesus dying for us we now have a direct link to God ourselves. Just talk with God, we pray to God but as well talk with God like he is our best friend always there by our side. The other thing is that the average Christian having this connection with God can heal and cast out sickness and demons just as the Apostles did through Jesus name. The other thing is the average Christian can even face the Devil himself and command him gone, he has no fear knowing God is with him! But this is the hard part of the pastors trying to convince the average Christian, through our movies and books of the world we are taught to fear evil even be terrified of it! But Jesus did not teach this, evil is terrified of us when we know ourselves through Jesus as the sons and daughters of God we are united with God as one.
By the way being Christian I am not offended by this question. I thank God for it! It gives me a chance to stand up for Christ and Christianity to clear misunderstandings that may lead people away from Christ.
To be fair there is the Religion of Christianity however true Christianity or (being Christ like is not religion but relationship with God) This is another thing that pastors have a hard time getting across to the congregation do not fall into religion like the Pharisees did but have a close relationship with God.
Anything can be used to further God's Kingdom on Earth and this is one. Thank you Springflower. :-)
Interesting discussion but what exactly do you mean by Magic? If Magic works then it has to adhere to some spiritual principles that are eternal, impersonal and metaphysically correct. Magic can't work outside these spiritual principals. Maybe its packaged in a different way thats outside what the traditional church considers normal. If you have to use Magic to work with The Law of Attraction...more power to you....but you're not going outside to some different source. I don't fault one religion or another. I was raised in the Methodist Church growing up and I didn't learn "squat" about spiritual principals that would work in my life. I was taught to be a complient tribal member...that Jesus died for my sins(still don't understand this)...and the Church will do all the heavy thinking for you. When I look back on it....I probably could have used a little Magic in my life.
answered 02 Jun '12, 06:46
The Christian followers that I know personally are very good, kind, loving and respectful people. They accept everyone for who they are and never try to change others, only themselves. So, I just want to point out that many Christians who truly believe in their religion and try to follow their material would not do this. I think many of them are good people and that, the basis of your question should be: do any religions use magic? Because, using magic to try and gain followers is something idividual, and every religion has had people who have tried to use some sort of method to force others to follow their material.
If magic is something you are worried about, consider comtemplating:
Is whats happening real or am I fooling myself? Can someone really force my own willpower? What is magic even?
Have you ever truly wondered what the limit of each individual's power is?
Did you know that when you touch something hot and it burns you, the feeling of 'pain' came from within your mind? The hot thing didn't make you feel pain, your brain told you to feel pain.
IMHO, magic is nothing to worry about. I have a relative who put spells on me constantly (out of love, apparently :)) but they have never worked. Im actually the one everyone says needs to play the lottery because Im always "beating the odds".
It's enough proof for me. The only people I see affected by it are the ones that think it's real.
answered 03 Jun '12, 01:14
As a Christian, I don't find your question at all offensive. It is merely your viewpoint. I respect the viewpoints of others. It is only when others, and I am not saying you are doing this, when others try to use their viewpoint as a club to coerce people into "following" their viewpoint that I quit listening. I am no longer interested in opening those doors.
I am familiar with various forms of WICCA (Craft of the Wise) mostly Celtic. In the basic teachings there is nothing I find negative. The concepts of "witchcraft" as being a negative religion are unfounded.
A primary teaching of WICCA is that whatever you do, or want to do to others, you keep the original and can, at best send a pale copy to others. Your intentions come back to you at seven times the power you sent them out. Another example of the LOA, and this is understood by the intelligent practitioners of any religion or philosophy!
I think that any misunderstood cause-effects can be termed "Magic".
Stage Magic is an illusion of something that appears to defy the laws of Space-Time. Pull a chandelier out of a walnut. Make a lion or a Lear Jet vanish. But to the Magician who knows the Illusion, there is no magic. The "show" is done to entertain audiences.**
Magick, as Stingray describes it, can be a way to influence others to get particular results that could be considered positive or negative.
It seems that you, @springflower, could be referring to Magick.
You could equally point to Islamic examples in Indonesia (except Bali which is more Hindi), the Philippines and other areas where "different", perhaps less "orthodox" versions of Islam are practiced. I am sure you are aware of these.
Though my childhood background is one of Christianity, I am open to other religions as I see great beauty in the basic similarities in all of them when studied in depth.
I am turning my attention to studying Islam. I feel it is a deep, powerful religion that has great beauty. I have a close friend in Mindanao, Philippines, Putri, a Moro, who is helping me. I also want to know more about the more fundamentalist Islam.
I am saddened that Islam has been tarnished by the horrible actions of a few extremist radicals. The same happens in any religion, including Christianity, when a few people step outside the basic tenets and decides THEY know, and will enforce ugliness in the name of that (whichever) religion.
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