This is not to say I think rape is fine, I don't. However, this is a very serious question. We live in a society that does not feel it is wrong to force people to do things in order to please other people. This is what the entire political system today is based on as we as a society have long discarded the idea of personal independence, with the state as an arbitrator, and have very much embraced a hive mentality. Not to say that societies in the past did not engage in this sort of thing, simply that there is no longer even the idea of a class of free citizens. Why is it worse to force a person (man, woman, child, whatever) to spend an hour or whatever having sex than it is to force a person to work an extra 20 hours a week to, let's pick a random example, finance another person's healthcare? The number of possible examples is as big as government budgets and the number of people who actively fight for that loot and will burn down a city if it is denied them is very large. I'm entirely sure a lot of them use the loot for sexual satisfaction and I'm also entirely sure a lot of them get sexual pleasure from simply knowing they have a high status in the power structure.

To be even more explicit, we still have mandatory military service here. Not every man serves but every man has to "enlist". The process involves being forced to go to an army camp and strip down in front of a bunch of other men who have the power to force you to basically be a slave for year. You are also forced to pledge your life. This is just the indignity involved in enlisting. So basically, even ignoring the political system as a whole, society feels it is perfectly fine to force all men to live a heavily regimented life, washing bathrooms and being physically assaulted and verbally abused for a year. Assuming there is no war, in which case it is also perfectly alright to send them to their slaughter.

And yet, if someone has to spend an hour being forced to have sex, that is outrageous? Why aren't people as outraged by taxes, military service, nonsensical laws and regulations, etc, as they are by rape? Why do we minimize the pain caused by those things?

Have you ever personally advocated things that, if you really stopped to think about it, are worse than rape?

asked 23 Nov '13, 12:37

flowsurfer's gravatar image


edited 24 Nov '13, 21:05

Note that most of the reason people don't feel as bad about paying taxes (for example) as they do about being raped is because they are told they shouldn't, they are told if they don't pay they are the aggressor, they shamed and made to feel guilty. Also because they don't have the means to escape their abuser. It is a phenomenon known as "capture-bonding" and it also happens with people that are victims of sexual abuse.

(23 Nov '13, 12:47) flowsurfer

In the old days, before it became as normalized as it is now, people were furious with taxation. Many a tax collector has been tortured to death for being a tax collector.

(23 Nov '13, 13:03) flowsurfer

I agree Flowey, I hadn't quite looked at it like that before. The enlistment thing is very valid. Why should a bunch of rich people who run my country have the right to force me to go out and fight for and protect "their" system. Nice point well made.

(23 Nov '13, 13:23) Monty Riviera

when you "we". You mean USA.

(23 Nov '13, 13:27) ursixx

I think Flowey means USA , I relate to the UK. I know enlistment isn't on the statute books right now but it has been and so easily could be again. We did used to get people drunk in this country, give them the Kings Shilling.....then they would wake up hungover on a boat and find themselves press ganged into the Navy !!

(23 Nov '13, 13:36) Monty Riviera

I have no idea what you people are talking about with the USA reference. It (the treating some people as serfs for the benefit of others) is certainly part of the american system but it also certainly not exclusive to it.

(23 Nov '13, 13:43) flowsurfer

I think it could be that ursixx wonders about the enlistment thing. I had no idea you still did that in the States. I think its different in every country. We don't do it anymore but did until recently. The Germans still do it and the Swiss too.

(23 Nov '13, 13:46) Monty Riviera

Military service is optional in the USA; you have to sign up for selective service but as far as I know that is all. I'm in Brazil but I'm not talking about country-specific issues. I'm talking about social attitudes. It is very easy to find people who think it is perfectly alright to force young men into military service just as it is very easy to find people who think it's perfectly alright to force cab drivers to pay taxes in order pay another person's [insert random government program here].

(23 Nov '13, 13:52) flowsurfer

@Monty I think maybe @ursixx is implying this is a problem with american society. It is not. Nearly every society on earth today has more or less the same attitude of thinking in terms of a hive, with taxpayers having a duty to pay for whatever it is the hive wants them to pay for.

(23 Nov '13, 14:03) flowsurfer

In Brazil, there was recently a wave of protests demanding free transportation, in which paradoxically buses would regularly be set on fire. We already have free hospitals, free schools, "food stamp" programs, just about every thing you could imagine as a program exists but the demands for more never end and neither does the struggle to collect more taxes. And people seriously wonder "Why aren't we Switzerland yet? It's the politicians, they are keeping all the loot for themselves!".

(23 Nov '13, 14:13) flowsurfer

The problem is that people have no respect for the humanity and personal independence of actual and potential taxpayers, just like a rapist has no respect for the humanity and personal independence of the one he/she is raping. It is the exact same thing, except rape usually ends fairly soon at which point the victim can usually heal from it, while most other forms of violence done in a more social context never really end until the victim has been worn out.

(23 Nov '13, 14:22) flowsurfer

A lot of this has to do with the meaning we attach to things. Conscription is normalized and given the meaning of being something "noble", of granting value to the one being conscripted. Rape on the other hand has not been normalized and has been given an increasingly negative meaning, of devaluing the person being raped. However, I don't think that it would be good to try and convince people that getting raped is an honor and that it makes them better people. Rapists actually sometimes do that.

(23 Nov '13, 14:38) flowsurfer

@Monty "Why should a bunch of rich people who run my country have the right to force me to go out and fight for and protect "their" system." Remember, military service is usually age and gender based. That is, young men would be fighting the war while older men would be at home having sex with the young women left alone because of the war. War conscription is very literally a brutal form of mass rape.

(23 Nov '13, 14:43) flowsurfer

I agree with your sentiments Flowey....I had no idea you hailed from Brazil, I assumed you were idea why. Ah well...that will teach me to assume things.

(23 Nov '13, 16:52) Monty Riviera

@flowsurfer literally you are vary cool person man, you have very clear thoughts perspective. I like that because you and me are in different costumes(body) with same mental attitude.

(23 Nov '13, 21:05) PERFECT GOOD

@Monty "Ah well...that will teach me to assume things". If you have discovered any calculation that results for perfect assumptions, please let us know.

(23 Nov '13, 21:10) PERFECT GOOD

I promise to keep you posted on that Perfect Good

(24 Nov '13, 02:29) Monty Riviera

@Monty Thank you.

(24 Nov '13, 06:00) PERFECT GOOD

@flowsurfer- In future I would edit the title of this question so people are attracted to the essence of it...It shows a lack of respect for (the good of) human nature to entitle a question based on fairness of money "why is rape such a big deal."

Though not myself, I'm sure visitors to the IQ website would be put off by this title.

Just a suggestion, not an attack and not an invitation for debate.

(24 Nov '13, 11:43) Nikulas

@Nikulas What??

(24 Nov '13, 11:51) flowsurfer

I would like people who downvote to explain WHY they are downvoting. Otherwise my impression is that people simply lack empathy.

(24 Nov '13, 17:09) flowsurfer

@flowsurfer I greatly appreciate you changing the title. Thank you for doing that.

I actually do not have any issues with you and I actually do like you. And hope we can still talk more on physical manifestations in the future as I really like the posts you have come up with in the past on that.

(24 Nov '13, 21:21) ikaruss21

@Monty In the US, all men between 18 & 26 have to sign up for the selective service. This includes illegal immigrants as well as all handicapped physically & mentally individuals as long as they can function in public with or w/o assistance. You country got ppl drunk - we take drunks. We do NOT discriminate. Flow knows so much about US govt. Never ceases to amaze me. Most ppl his age in the US couldn't tell you what 2nd Amendment was & flow knows. Spending quality time in the ...

(26 Nov '13, 07:26) ele

the ... basement educating himself. He wasn't smoking dope, playing video games or just watching porn. Always feeding his mind. How is it you didn't know he was from Latin America? Remember he never got to Disney Land or was it World? Later he couldn't get a visa to come to the US. At one time @flow wanted a career in politics. He's quite knowledgeable about US politics.

(26 Nov '13, 07:29) ele

@flowsurfer Are you using translation software when you write on IQ?

(26 Nov '13, 15:48) ele

No, I am not.

(26 Nov '13, 16:52) flowsurfer

Don't be a stranger @flow You'll be missed.. Guess you followed me ... Be seeing you..

(28 Nov '13, 07:01) ele

@flowsurfer I just wanted to set one thing straight about the military in the USA. Our military is completely voluntary. The only thing that is mandatory is when you turn 18 you must sign up for Selective Service. What this says is, in case that there is a war and the draft is reinstated, it says "I volunteer to fight in this war."

(28 Nov '13, 15:24) Wade Casaldi

@Wade I cannot believe you just said that. What the #### is wrong with you? Read what you just wrote. I am frankly disgusted by what this question has shown me about this community and some of the members in it.

(28 Nov '13, 15:32) flowsurfer

@flowsurfer I had to sign up for Selective Service when I was 18. I was terrified I'd be drafted into war. I wasn't, I'm in my late forties now and was never in the military.

(28 Nov '13, 15:44) Wade Casaldi

@Wade When it is mandatory to volunteer to something, it is not volunteering. You weren't drafted, awesome. Except you are not the only person on the planet and neither is the US the only country with a military. How many iraqi men were burned alive less than ten years ago because someone put a gun to their backs and the backs of their family and told them they had to go and be target practice? Who even cares that they died as slaves, they were just soldiers right, they deserved it?

(28 Nov '13, 16:04) flowsurfer

@Wade Do not ever forget the fear that you felt of being drafted into war as a teenager. Don't forget those that didn't dodge that bullet. And don't forget how little regard society had for your own personal independence.

(28 Nov '13, 16:39) flowsurfer

@flowsurfer When you put it that way you have a point. I hadn't thought of it from that scared teen signing that paper because it was the law. When you age something happens and you think you overreacted back then. You think, "I had to do it and I'm fine." But when examined, you are not forced to volunteer but by law you are forced to say if you are drafted you will volunteer and go when called. That now that I gave it a second look is a backhanded way of forcing teens to "volunteer."

(28 Nov '13, 19:21) Wade Casaldi

@Wade I'm sorry if I was harsh with you, I'm just in a very angry and depressed mood right now.

(28 Nov '13, 19:42) flowsurfer

@Wade I mentioned earlier that @flow knows more about our govt than most Americans his age do. Our military is NOT voluntary & you are absolutely NOT saying "I'm volunteering to fight in this war" when you register w/ Selective Service. The purpose of mandatory registering is to be prepared w/ a list of names & current addresses of men in case an act of war is declared & a draft is necessary. If you do register you can face a $250,000 fine & jail time. If you're not registered you cannot

(29 Nov '13, 04:53) ele

cannot ... qualify for Fed Financial Aid for schooling, fed job training, fed jobs & in many states, state jobs would not be an option to you. @flow I know you once dreamed of a career in politics. Perhaps you should think about it again. Sounds like you have a passion for this.....

(29 Nov '13, 04:57) ele
showing 0 of 36 show 36 more comments

I can see the point you are trying to make. We are all very different from each other and it all boils down to our individual opinions just like we have individual opinions about everything else in life, for instance, I believe that money is not the source of happiness whereas loads of other people think it is. We all will never be able to agree on a lot of things in life and that is just something we have to accept.

And most of the time, these opinions come about as a result of our life experiences. For example, I have a permanent job that requires me to work under pressure most of the time and for long hours and week ends frequently. So, I don't have a very high opinion of having to pay taxes. But somebody else's experience might be completely different. They might not have a job and really enjoy the fact that people pay taxes because that they then get unemployment benefit for example.


answered 28 Nov '13, 06:31

Pink%20Diamond's gravatar image

Pink Diamond


You just won 2824 karma points. I know you can't actually do anything with them, I just wanted some way to show respect for your answer.

(28 Nov '13, 06:40) flowsurfer

yes @Pink Diamond ... a deep question that's certainly designed to sort the sheep from the goats ... it's a real test for unlimited love and non judgement :)

(28 Nov '13, 06:44) jaz

If you knew if was deep - then you wouldn't need either non judgment or unconditional love.

(28 Nov '13, 07:02) ele

@Pink Diamond You should play the lottery -- SR & now flow...

(28 Nov '13, 07:03) ele

@flowsurfer - I am glad you liked the answer.

(29 Nov '13, 05:09) Pink Diamond
showing 2 of 5 show 3 more comments

it is a violation
of individuality,
a consciousness of
darkness, a base level
of manifestation
for a spiritual being


answered 24 Nov '13, 06:08

fred's gravatar image


@fred-Bravo! Excellent point, excellent poetry, excellent writing! +1 For this one, Fred! ♥

(27 Nov '13, 21:36) Jaianniah

I agree that war poisons the human spirit and the trauma that is created by it gridlocks humanity in patterns of violence, bloodshed and pain. Rape also keeps humanity stuck in lower vibrations and many beings are incarnate right now to overcome their tendency to rape and kill in order to feel more powerful. It only gives the illusion of power - in reality it keeps you locked into a denser world, stuck in a chain of misery and pain. The normalising of violence by the mass media only serves to make us all less compassionate, less empathic and move us away from the higher frequencies of love and well being.

The time really has come to consciously decide whether you want to stay stuck in these lower frequencies or whether you want something different. You've got to start being more conscious and discerning about what you are absorbing through the mass media (violence being no big deal is one erroneous message) and what you put out there Flowsurfer. Start by consciously intending to live in peace, freedom and harmony with all beings, regardless of gender and race. Look for signs of harmony in your environment - small acts of kindness and compassion. Be mindful of what you are focusing into being, particularly as things really start to speed up. It really is only a choice between fear and love. No one else can make that choice for you.


answered 25 Nov '13, 04:11

Catherine's gravatar image


edited 25 Nov '13, 06:29

@Catherine I didn't intend to "ignore" you, I just didn't know what to add to it. I do intend to live in peace, freedom and harmony with others. The problem is that others don't have the same intention, no matter how much I would like to believe that they do. I would like to believe that a spiritual focus could change that somehow but I really don't.

(28 Nov '13, 15:52) flowsurfer

Rape is primarily an act of violence. It is an act of betrayal, a violation of the integrity of a woman's body and psyche. It is an assault, worse than an ordinary assault because it creates emotional scars as well as physical ones.

There's a reason that war crimes often involve raping of the enemy's women; it represents complete abandon of all principles, and complete demoralization of the enemy.

Women who are raped require healing of the most fundamental kind, and some of the damage that is done never completely goes away. I'd say that pretty much trumps whatever moral objections you have to other kinds of crime.


answered 28 Nov '13, 14:59

Vesuvius's gravatar image



Yea, being crippled for the rest of your life doesn't really leave any real emotional or physical scars. Only rape can do that. Not only that, only rape done against a woman, because a man that is raped doesn't actually feel any sense of betrayal or violation of the integrity of his body and psyche. Congratulatoins, you just earned an ####### of the year award.

(28 Nov '13, 15:35) flowsurfer

I didn't really expect you to understand. But you did ask the question. Unless perhaps you didn't ask it in good faith? If you're asking questions here having already made up your own mind, then you're not really asking, are you, since your mind is not open to receive an answer. Rather, you are just promoting your own political agenda. That's not why we're here. If that's what you're all about, there are plenty of other places you can do that on the internet.

(29 Nov '13, 00:23) Vesuvius

@Vesuvius I haven't had time for IQ; but I plan to answer @flow 's ? & specifically reply to your A as soon as I can find time to do so . I agree with what @flow said. I just wouldn't of said it the manner he did; but I understand his passion & frustration. @flow I know you aren't a fan of Lennon & you made fun of me when I said he was one of my teachers but I think you'll appreciate the video I'm going to post. It expresses your views far more powerfully, imo.

(15 Dec '13, 21:01) ele

"Yea, being crippled for the rest of your life doesn't really leave any real emotional or physical scars. Only rape can do that" I'll let the John Lennon video speak for me.

John Lennon ~ Happy Christmas

(15 Dec '13, 21:02) ele
showing 2 of 4 show 2 more comments

I feel you should of seriously asked this question else where. Especially since we all know you formed this question from a topic where someone on here here was highly traumatized from being raped and goes on here everyday and is going to see your title of this post when she wakes up and logs on. Not to mention all the other people who frequent here that may have gone through the same thing. Change your question title at least. What the hell man.

Whoever upvoted this is dumb.

I understand where you are going with your question, and I share the same opinions on how we live everyday in a slave robotic fashion towards the bottom of what you wrote, but your question, the way you asked it in the title and from the get go of the summary is highly harsh to people who have gone through this and are coming to this site looking for help.


answered 24 Nov '13, 12:09

ikaruss21's gravatar image



" Whoever upvoted this is dumb" Would that be that "you" think there dumb? It could be that they saw past the headline of the question, actually read it and then decided that it contained a lot of truth and was worth the vote. But thanks for setting us all straight ikaruss21. If you say its dumb,,,well then it must be.

(24 Nov '13, 14:09) Monty Riviera

@Monty Riviera

I am not saying everybody is all dumb on here, because that is not what I wrote. Just that one single person who upvoted it.

So what's gonna happen then when a person that has actually had this happened to them sees that post and gets horribly offended by it, and then clicks on it and sees people actually supported it.

Especially since one of those people who surely has gone through this goes on here everyday and sees you all as friends.

(24 Nov '13, 14:20) ikaruss21

I did not ask this question because of Jai. Jai's experiences, if they are true, go much beyond rape. In fact I imagine being locked in a coffin all night with a corpse was probably more traumatic than being raped.

(24 Nov '13, 15:30) flowsurfer

My question is simply looking at how we "evaluate" abuse. It was actually motivated by the fact I had listened to something that talked about false rape accusations and seemed to treat them as kind of a "Oh well, oops!". As far as I am concerned, a false rape accusation is a far worst crime than rape itself. I had also been thinking about Trayvon Martin, because even though he was clearly a bully, I was thinking that a case could be made that he was the victim engaged in a form of self-defense.

(24 Nov '13, 15:39) flowsurfer

I have also been thinking about how rape is one of the few crimes that people actively and positively fantasize about, as victims. Yet it is also treated as if it was close to murder, when it is actually, in real terms, a very mild form of abuse that is only "horrible" because people blow it out of proportion in their own minds. Serious assault, the kind that permanently debilitates a person, actually carries a smaller penalty than plain rape here.

(24 Nov '13, 16:01) flowsurfer

And yet people that are victimized by other things that are worst than rape are simply told to get over it. You don't like being forced into military service? Get over it. I am sorry but being forced into military service, even in times of peace, is worse than most (though not all) rape experiences. People are simply not allowed to recognize that it is worse.

(24 Nov '13, 16:04) flowsurfer

Nobody would ever dare suggest that all women be sent to rape camps when they turn 18 in order to do their duty to the nation by producing children, to get out of the demographic crisis plaguing western nations. Yet it is OK to force men into the military? It is certainly not. Perhaps if we could take some of the outrage we direct towards rape to other abuses, we could make society more humane.

(24 Nov '13, 16:08) flowsurfer

@ikaruss21 I would hope that what happens is that Jai realizes she is not alone, she is actually surrounded by a world of people who have been victimized from childhood in brutal ways and are often still trapped in a cycle of abuse. Her story is her story and nobody can take it away from her. But she does not need to feel like she is broken beyond repair. The way people heal from abuse is by telling a different story regarding it.

(24 Nov '13, 16:30) flowsurfer

@ikaruss21 I am not going to shield her, or any other victim of any sort of abuse from confronting the context in which their abuse exists. Jai has also engaged in abusive behavior. Most rape victims have done things that are worse than rape, it is just that they are oblivious to the pain they cause. I would like to see Jai focus more on what she actually wants for her life going forward, instead of holding on to her identity as a victim.

(24 Nov '13, 16:53) flowsurfer

I used to be very sensitive to the suffering of others. I still am. However, the result is that I became aware of so much suffering that it made me jaded. I would see a person suffering and feel angry with their abuser. Then I would pay attention and see that the person is actually an abuser as well. And I see the circle and it short-circuits my brain, because I can't figure out who is abusing who. I cannot figure out how to be a moral person in a such a deeply immoral world.

(24 Nov '13, 17:20) flowsurfer

I cannot figure out who deserves my support.

(24 Nov '13, 17:21) flowsurfer

@ikaruss21 "We live in a society that does not feel it is wrong to force people to do things in order to please other people". It is the psychology of most people; because of which I up-voted it. The question might create a hype, but it is regarding social issue we face in day to day life. Anyhow thanks to @flowsurfer for changing the question.

(25 Nov '13, 02:42) PERFECT GOOD

@flowsurfer In the past I used to think about "who is abusing who", but later I started to think "what I want".

(25 Nov '13, 02:57) PERFECT GOOD

@flowsurfer The world deserves your support. :)

(25 Nov '13, 03:02) PERFECT GOOD

he listens to the verbage of incohate beings, and then understands better the sorrows on planet earth and of her inhabitants

(25 Nov '13, 05:00) fred

@Monty I must be dumber, cause I voted it up for the same reasons you did plus the convo between you & flow made me laugh. First smiles I've had on IQ for awhile. @ikaruss flow did as you asked. Not sure if you know this - but - you have 24 hours to cancel a vote. Just click it again. I've been waiting and waiting for someone to ask how LOA applies to a rape.

(25 Nov '13, 06:36) ele

I upvoted too ele. I could see what Flowey was getting at. Unfortunately if we take ikaruss 21s advice we wont be able to discuss anything on here incase we offend someone. Now this bits for you Ikaruss21. There will hereby be no posts on bankruptcy or financial problems incase it offends ME. Because ive been thru that, also nothing about suicide cos ive recently had one in my immediate family, next...anything about a nervous breakdown, ive suffered one of those too. I could go on and on .

(25 Nov '13, 10:12) Monty Riviera

This website isn't yours mine or Jais. We discuss pertinent issues that people deem as being important. The fact the someone may or may not have had something bad happen to them doesn't mean we don't discuss that subject. Im sorry but this site isn't here to pander to anyones finer feelings. No ones forced to visit this site. If Jais offended by the subject matter then I assume she knows how to switch her computer off or visit another site.

(25 Nov '13, 10:17) Monty Riviera

This post has been posted by someone who has also had his fair share of ups and downs in life. He has posted a reasonable question with some very reasonable points. His points have resonated with myself and ele too. By all means downvote him ikaruss, I wont say your " dumb" to do that. Please cut me the same amount of slack and while your doing that realise were not here to mollycoddle anyone , its a forum , not a social service.

(25 Nov '13, 10:21) Monty Riviera

Oh bye the way, great to speak again ele, glad me un Flowey made you laugh ! Theres something about the Flowmeister that intrigues me. He is coming up with some inspired and racy stuff. The forums never dull with him around. You give it that spice too ele :)

(25 Nov '13, 10:24) Monty Riviera

Don't forget no discussion of the ACA, in case someone is suffering because of it. Oh wait, Jai already asked a question about that. Note that I started the question with "This is not to say I think rape is fine, I don't."

(25 Nov '13, 10:40) flowsurfer

Why would a rape victim be hurt by this question? I could easily have titled it "Why is armed robbery such a big deal?", except it kind of isn't, armed robbers and murderers are often glorified, rapists are not. Rape is the least normalized crime, even though both men and women actually fantasize about being raped, humiliated and abused (I imagine nobody gets pleasure from fantasizing that their store got robbed or their son murdered). Which is kind of odd.

(25 Nov '13, 10:41) flowsurfer

@Monty It appears only you & I thought this ? was appropriate for IQ. I guess questers will exercise their veto power as long as downvoting is anonymous again. Chickens. Good stuff in those comments. Thanks..

(26 Nov '13, 06:59) ele

I guess that's the beauty of this site, people can see a post that they frankly think is downright terrible... and someone else sees it in a very different light. No ones right or wrong here, it just shows how differently we react to the same things. I would probably be with ikaruss on 90% of topics, this one seems to have caused such differing responses. I just cant see a problem with it, Floweys said right away he doesn't condone rape, still its ruffled feathers!!

(26 Nov '13, 09:56) Monty Riviera

Frankly @Monty Ikaruss only succeeded in stirring the pot . Who knows if Jai was offended . Perhaps it gave her ideas. All I know is it made it worse & another accusation was lodged which I felt compelled to respond to. @ikaruss & @flow Don't confuse the "coffin" story w/ the original ? which was about a 2007 rape when she was in her 50's & married. The info regarding the coffin was added for your benefit the other day. You may want to look into the "coffin" story a bit more &

(26 Nov '13, 14:26) ele

& ... decide if its plausible.

(26 Nov '13, 14:29) ele

I don't know if the coffin story is plausible and I am honestly too lazy to even think about it. I can't fix Jai, I am not in a position to judge her and either way, it won't help me overcome my own problems. If she is being sincere, I'll offer sincere advice and comfort, when I'm able. If not, I guess I wasted my energy but I'm willing to take that gamble simply because I don't want to hurt her in case she is sincere.

(26 Nov '13, 15:21) flowsurfer

I do want Wade to be careful though because if she isn't sincere, he is the only one around here who can actually get hurt because of it. He can judge by himself how likely that is, I can't. He sounds in love and I doubt he is willing to even consider the possibility that he is dealing with an abuser. I hope that is because Jai has a good heart and is just troubled and traumatized and in need of help and he is able to see that. He says she made progress. So maybe things are getting better?

(26 Nov '13, 15:26) flowsurfer

My point @flow is its only causing more conflict. I was not judging her. I was disagreeing with the validity of the "coffin" story & pointing out why I did not think Ikaruss's helped. I've never read any post by Jai which gave me any indication she was mentally ill - period. She said that about herself numerous times & perhaps there is another reason for this. I think she is a gifted & talented writer & story teller. I have no idea if her hub story is true or not - it could be ...

(26 Nov '13, 16:15) ele

be ... fiction. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. There also could be another reason for the page which in my mind would explain why its seems like she never "gets" what we say. Something I only realized a couple days ago. Not my story to tell. I think she is just trying to survive & our govt does not help. I agree, Jai has a big heart..

(26 Nov '13, 16:18) ele

good to see you back ele!

(26 Nov '13, 16:50) abrahamloa

Thanks @abrahamloa Means a lot. Haven't even had a chance to catch up -- especially w/ all the chat between you & @flo. I can't even keep up to his posts. He's all over the place. I miss email notifications. Don't be hurt if I missed any comments you made to me which entailed a question. I'll catch up soon unless ....... the unexpected happens again.. Public enemy no 1. (joke) - terrorist ele lol!

(26 Nov '13, 19:22) ele

@ele I think I was wrong to give Jai so much slack. I don't think she has a big heart at all. I personally know abusers who "have a big heart" because they take care of stray animals; or rather, they make others do it. That is only to feed their own ego. I am pretty much convinced Jai is an abuser who does not deserve to be treated with kid gloves anymore. Abusers have often suffered abuse themselves so her stories may very well be completely true but that does not excuse her own darkness.

(27 Nov '13, 13:48) flowsurfer

@flow Lets discuss abusers, manipulators & victim personalities in general . I think this would make a great topic for discussion as well as being very helpful info. Please don't point any fingers at anyone & please leave their names out of the convo. Please choose your words more carefully. IQ is a sanctuary of sort. They are not on trial. To anyone else reading along - Sticks & Stones May Break MY Bones; But Words Will NEVER Hurt Me"* Wise Words to remember - you are in charge of

(27 Nov '13, 17:59) ele

how words affect you. Discussing something someone else posts is allowed as long as it is not an attack... Negative feedback or someone disagreeing with another member is not an attack. If you don't want anyone to express their viewpoint unless they agree with you then you are on the wrong forum. This is a Q & A site. If you want to discuss another members posts - do it on their question or answer & not on another thread.

(27 Nov '13, 18:24) ele

I made the comment here because it was in response to my comment. I am saying that rope broke. If someone wants me to tone down the language because Jai may be offended or hurt by things that weren't meant to be offensive or hurtful, sorry, but the answer is no. From now on, she gets zero slack from me.

(27 Nov '13, 18:43) flowsurfer

You know, this thread is actually very revealing to me. Things people say in it as well as how they vote. This is not a healthy community. I am not healthy myself and it is not benefiting me to engage with it. I am going out of my mind not knowing how to heal. I feel my life is completely worthless and hopeless. There is something wrong with my head that draws me back here. I think it is a stupid hope that the next comment I read will be special. I need to recognize that illusion for what it is.

(27 Nov '13, 19:00) flowsurfer

@flow YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.. I knew it as soon as I wrote what I did. I had to go. There were accusations made against you & that was NOT fair. The accusations both on this thread & elsewhere had everything to do with this thread, so you have every right to feel hurt & defend yourself. Just be careful how you do it. ok. I agree with what you said about the voting. She tried to use the excuse she didn't like what I wrote on another thread. She voted down those popular A's hrs before

(27 Nov '13, 19:35) ele

.... before she landed on that question. I doubt if she read them. They were the easiest answers to down vote. Just click on my profile & click on any of my answers - they are listed in order of most voted. She also voted down wiki. I understand why she voted down my latest A; but not the others. She could have canceled her down votes; but she chose not to. She had 24 hrs. At least on that shopping site - they limit the no. of down votes 1 member can cast against another one in 1 day.

(27 Nov '13, 19:44) ele

You know I don't care about Karma -- I've given nearly 3500 points a way. That is NOT the point. It's sort of like a book or product review - ppl vote a great review down because they are irked at the member who wrote it. Their childish actions affect the shoppers or readers who rely on reviews. Her down vote had NOTHING to do with my answers to others questions. It was personal.. I see you are still getting down votes. I don't get it. I guess everyone isn't as objective as Monty or me..

(27 Nov '13, 19:53) ele

@Monty Hope you don't mind - borrowing a comment for Meta... Actually borrowed several ...

(28 Nov '13, 04:52) ele
showing 2 of 41 show 39 more comments

@flowsurfer You put fair points to be deal with. Nevertheless everything balanced. Poor is suffering, rich is enjoying. If wound gives pain, healing gives relieved. You have to decide where you want your place to be. It is not easy to get everything we desire for, but every desire has its own challenges to meet with. And also if we cover or uncover our imaginations, we feel like we are at right place, and have to make a start right from here for the changes that we look for.

@flowsurfer love you man.

Thank you, Perfect Good

(Just for mathematically accuracy I would like to let know everyone on IQ that I'm male.)


answered 23 Nov '13, 22:13

PERFECT%20GOOD's gravatar image


This is not a poor vs rich thing. The poor attempt to enslave the rich all the time.

(23 Nov '13, 22:26) flowsurfer

The poor need guru(master) like you, who can fight back for his/her free will.

(23 Nov '13, 22:44) PERFECT GOOD

Well said @flowsurfer "The poor attempt to enslave the rich all the time". They do!

(26 Nov '13, 17:59) No Brainer
showing 2 of 3 show 1 more comments

Rape is more than a sin against humanity, hence unpardonable. Because rapist mentality is that I want what I want at any cost--at the cost of physical, mental, and emotional pain of the other person, and trampling over the cherished value of the victim. Utter disregard of others, hence such a person invites the same treatment from the society!

And nature will ensure that the rapist receives the same distress he gave to his victim--though mode of distress may vary!


answered 25 Nov '13, 00:57

T%20D%20Joseph's gravatar image

T D Joseph

edited 25 Nov '13, 00:57

I didn't ask if rape was good or bad. That mentality sounds a lot like the average mentality of the average human being, especially on election day.

(25 Nov '13, 08:22) flowsurfer

Okay, I haven't even bothered to read through ALL the answers. But I understand and agree with a lot of what you're saying in your post.

Society is messed up. Plain and simple. The reason things like rape are worse than forced military service is because of the belief systems everybody has. They believe that the body is sacred and if it's defiled it's one of the worst things EVER. Now, I do respect people and their bodies, but it's obvious that rape is a bigger deal because society's belief systems make it a bigger deal.

So asking this question is redundant at this point because the answer is already staring you in the face. Society is messed up in many ways. Certain things are acceptable in society while others are not, and it's all because of belief systems. Anything else to do with this question is just going to result in you running around in circles; because it all goes back to belief systems.

NOTE: On an individual level, rape is very much a big deal. I'm sure you're not arguing against that, of course, but I'm just pointing it out. The individual themselves can be mentally scarred for the rest of their lives from an experience like that. So even if murder is worse, (personally I think it is because you're taking someone's life) rape can still be tremendously life impacting, depending on a lot of factors.

So as a whole, yes, I agree that compared to murder, forced military service, etc, rape is (for whatever reason) more unacceptable. It's just the way society is.


answered 25 Nov '13, 20:30

PowerWave's gravatar image


They don't believe the body is sacred because military service is the most degrading thing you can do to someone's body, especially if there is an actual war.

(25 Nov '13, 20:31) flowsurfer

What I meant by "sacred" is that people put more value into somebody getting sexually abused, rather than someone getting violently hurt, murdered, manipulated, etc.

(25 Nov '13, 20:34) PowerWave

you are wrong.. the punishment for rape is less severe than murder... i am not talking about the feeling people have but as a law its obvious murder is treated as a much bigger crime...

(25 Nov '13, 20:38) abrahamloa

@abrahamloa I know about that. But I'm talking about people's "veiwpoints" & "feelings" rather than the law. :P

(25 Nov '13, 20:39) PowerWave

Murder has a greater punishment, assault leading to permanent injury does not. I checked.

(25 Nov '13, 20:43) flowsurfer

when it comes to forced military service normally democratic nations don't want to do that.. you need to realize that and not take it out of context just cause it happened sometime in past ... its only under grave situations they enforce it as a nation... and they really don't want to do it... i am not talking about cruel dictatorships which are totally wrong to begin with.. in that case its f-ed up anyway..

(25 Nov '13, 20:44) abrahamloa

society mess-up is something understand... whats messed up is the corruption they are doing .. there is no doubt.. but you can't under any circumstance equate rape and tax laws and other regulations that have been build in democracy... its the misuse thats the problem..

(25 Nov '13, 20:46) abrahamloa

also there is diff between my personal perspective that i want to only pay 25% tax although society has 35%... this does not mean nation is unjust... thats not correct way to think.... you need to then pay 35% and you can always take up the issue and fight for what you want if you feel thats right within the system... but what i am saying is at this point humanity is best trying to organize everyone;s needs.. and you need to tackle that within the system... otherwise there will be chaos...

(25 Nov '13, 20:50) abrahamloa

Honestly @flowsurfer, I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish with this question, but I don't think it's going anywhere productive. :/

(25 Nov '13, 20:55) PowerWave

@PowerWave "I'm asking a personal question for people, for them to look within themselves. Do you support using violence in order to satisfy your desires? If you do, how are you different from a rapist?"

(25 Nov '13, 20:59) flowsurfer

@flowsurfer I appreciate the concept behind the question, but it comes off in a way that seems to be, I don't know, argument enticing?

(25 Nov '13, 21:06) PowerWave

@PowerWave To be quite honest, I'm trying to distract myself. Some time ago the sense that the impositions of the social and natural world were just unbearably unjust forced me to turn to the idea that I am not a victim because God (spiritual power) is my shield, through which I have perfect freedom and that all negative things in my life I attracted and could detach from.

(25 Nov '13, 22:25) flowsurfer

@PowerWave I considered the possibility that I was free and could live as I wanted. I might still pay taxes, but do so without pain, without being deprived in the process. I considered that I could truly let go of the past hurts. I considered that I was a tourist in the world and that I could choose what to experience in it, without having to fix it, I could let people live their own fantasies. I did not find much success and am in doubt. This doubt is very painful.

(25 Nov '13, 22:30) flowsurfer

@PowerWave I'm not going to share everything I went through in my life but I am very much trying to hold on to the idea that I have attracted whatever abuse or limitation I have experienced in order to avoid feeling powerless and worthless. I'm not entirely sure how this accomplishes that but it does give a little bit of relief. Well it did up until a few minutes ago.

(25 Nov '13, 22:46) flowsurfer
showing 2 of 14 show 12 more comments

There is a lot of fear in your question. When one disowns his responsibility in a democratic system and puts blame on them and states what they do as unfair and equates that to rape.
You are your government, decisions made are made on your behalf. If you are unhappy with these decisions it is your responsibility to seek change in them.
IMHO I am glad to pay taxes I like the fact that My neighbors can receive heath care without having to worry if they will have enough food on the table. Not wanting to pay taxes is a sign of fear and lack.
As an example: How much better do you think an IQ's user would feel today if she did not have to worry about the burden of medical expenses? I would gladly work an hour a day to see that.
So you don't like how your government works? Get involved! Join a political party, be active in the party. Run for office.
Something I learned. If you stand outside and scream at the building no one hears you, if you are inside the building and whisper everyone listens to you.
If you're going to comment with "I can't... ," I don't...","It doesn't..." Don't bother to comment. You will be coming from a place of fear and lack... understand that


answered 27 Nov '13, 03:13

ursixx's gravatar image


edited 28 Nov '13, 11:22

I don't want to post here on personal matters but I read this and I felt I simply had to respond to it. Your answer shows a very, very deep lack of empathy and respect for other human beings. Here is what I am talking about: and here is another example:

(27 Nov '13, 12:28) flowsurfer

"but others see the army and its 9,000 Thai baht ($310) a month salary as a way out of poverty and a means to discipline unruly sons."I want my son to be a soldier, he drinks too much and could do with the discipline," said Acharaya Goonyatip. "If he's sent to the south, I would make peace with that. We all have to die anyway." Her son subsequently drew a red card."

(27 Nov '13, 12:31) flowsurfer

"such as drills that involve being forced to drink liters of water and then vomit, or punishments like rolling head first on gravel pits. Some people also question the fact that the army does little to help the vulnerable in its midst. Drug use is prevalent, and some recruits are sexually abused."

(27 Nov '13, 12:38) flowsurfer

But what truly enrages me is NOT the abuse, but this: "But there has been little overt public outcry and no calls to change the system, which is viewed with resignation as something of a male rite of passage. "This is part of every Thai man's life," said aspiring chef Jom Radidgumpu, who was filing papers to defer until his studies were over. "You can leave it up to fate or you can volunteer."

(27 Nov '13, 12:39) flowsurfer

And in China "An estimated 90 per cent of the Chinese population support the death penalty, despite the brutality involved." It is not like Texas, people are not executed because they are clearly psychopaths. They are executed for all sorts of minor offenses, including not paying their taxes properly. So if 90% of the population doesn't care, does that mean there are over a billion brutal rapists in China alone?

(27 Nov '13, 12:43) flowsurfer

Note that I, living in a (democratic) country with mandatory military service, have heard the exact same thing "The discipline will be good for you." more times than I can remember before my 18th birthday. Note that I have never been a violent person, it is not like I was out of control and deserved some rough treatment. My sister was always much more violent and I would never advocate her slavery. When I said I didn't want to serve, the answer was basically "nobody cares what you want".

(27 Nov '13, 13:08) flowsurfer

It is horrible because I have to look these people in the eye and most of the time they are actually "nice". I cannot feel angry with them. I am certain that is how many black slaves felt, they could not actually feel anger for their masters, they would often just feel shame (see Booker T Washington's book). Which is why slavery can sustain itself, the slave is not able to recognize the full extent of what is being done to him, only short term pain which is justified as being for his own good.

(27 Nov '13, 13:17) flowsurfer

@ursixx-You have pointed out the flaws in flowsurfer's logic very well. I have been kinda thinking that comparing problems with gov't policy to rape is like comparing apples to oranges...neither is comparable to the other in the first place. But the major flaw is the fact the he has not either emigrated elsewhere nor changed the system from within...just stirred up a lot of nice people here on IQ with inflammatory rhetoric and a catchy metaphorical ? that drops dead on the floor....

(27 Nov '13, 23:27) Jaianniah

@Jai You could have left your abusive family or tried to change them from within too. The problem with that is, I can't change them. It is a false choice, it doesn't really exist. While I could leave, what makes them the owners of this land? And where would I leave to? Eventually you did leave your abusers. Millions of mexicans have fled to your country, not to mention other groups like cubans, and it isn't because they like the weather. It is because America is not quite as abusive.

(27 Nov '13, 23:46) flowsurfer

@Jai Okay. You threw me off balance with that and I got angry for a moment, but I am going to choose to keep seeing you as healed.

(27 Nov '13, 23:49) flowsurfer

thanks @flowsurfer for giving us more examples of fear and lack in your comments.

(28 Nov '13, 02:05) ursixx

@ursixx-change that phrase "Like comparing apples to oranges" to this, because that is too tame...It is like comparing a tank, firing in battle, to a roomful of disagreeable lawyers....LOL ♥

(28 Nov '13, 02:08) Jaianniah

There you go throwing me off balance again... @Jai If you really believe that, you are a rapist. Period. So are you @ursixx . Now, it could be said that rape victims attract rape by their vibration. Possible, and in that sense I recognize that focusing on victimization harms me. However, it also allows me to make the choice not to be a victim, to not take abuse as being "just the way things are". So now I will attempt to focus on empowerment, from a far more solid foundation. Thank you.

(28 Nov '13, 02:19) flowsurfer

@flowsurfer I wonder if you use products made in China? Do you belong and or donate to organizations such as Amnesty International that bring to light these things? If you want change you must be willing to change.

(28 Nov '13, 02:25) ursixx

By the way, I don't mean that you are a rapist "metaphorically", I mean it quite literally. I take my forgiveness back. I don't have a duty to forgive you, if I want to see you in a bad light, I have that right. I feel like being hateful right now. It feels good. Thanks for shifting my vibration up.

(28 Nov '13, 02:28) flowsurfer

@flow That's perfectly acceptable ... Own your feelings ... tis your right.. Don't ever let anyone tell you how to feel... Taking your Power back ... feels good doesn't it ... You & Jai are good for one another..

(28 Nov '13, 04:15) ele

This is prob the best answer so far. I can't vote it up till you edit your error. That is NOT a rhetorical question bro...

(28 Nov '13, 06:42) ele

Well put @ursixx "So you don't like how your government works? Get involved! Join a political party, be active in the party. Run for office.

Something I learned. If you stand outside and scream at the building no one hears you, if you are inside the building and whisper everyone listens to you.

If you're going to comment with "I can't... ," I don't...","It doesn't..." Don't bother to comment. You will be coming from a place of fear and lack...understand that."

DO something or shut up! Upvote

(28 Nov '13, 13:24) Dollar Bill

@Dollar Bill I think you should shut up instead. Don't ever ####### tell me that if I don't play a game that is completely rigged against me and absolutely pointless I don't have a right to even complain.

(28 Nov '13, 15:46) flowsurfer


Aw man! Do me next! I think I am one of the only ones on here that has been deprived of a free insult.

(28 Nov '13, 19:52) ikaruss21

@ikaruss21 Yea, because I am insulting him when I tell him to shut up but when he tells me to shut up, it's just fine. Here it is: you are a ####### idiot. Did you enjoy that? Did that satisfy your rape fantasies? In fact, I am so disgusted by some of you people that I'm going to start a game. Let's see if I can be offensive enough to get banned.

(29 Nov '13, 08:08) flowsurfer

@flowsurfer, your comment: "I'm going to start a game. Let's see if I can be offensive enough to get banned" demonstrates you are now deliberating attempting to disrupt Inward Quest. Your account is now suspended.

(29 Nov '13, 09:16) IQ Moderator ♦♦

Sad to see you go Flowey, I do see the moderators point thou.

(29 Nov '13, 10:27) Monty Riviera

Well I guess this wave ended for flowsurfer. Hang in there bro there will be more waves to catch

(29 Nov '13, 11:31) ursixx

@ursixx Did you ever think there may not be a wave for him to catch? Please give some thought to why an intelligent man like flow would be taking refuge in his moms basement. His mom has very little money - why would she allow her 28 yr old son to live in her basement for years?

(30 Nov '13, 17:35) ele

@ursixx .. as for your rhetorical ?- saw it before your edit. The US taxpayers are already supporting her. This is NOT news. She's fortunate not to have medical bills to worry about. That's one of the reasons we pay taxes in the US & I fully support these programs. I'm happy my tax dollars go to support programs like these & ppl like her.

(30 Nov '13, 18:21) ele

Don't understand. Is Flowsurfer's mother is being supported by US Tax Dollars in Brazil?

I do feel sorry for him, but I also certainly see the Moderator's point. You get what you ask for. Be sure it is what you want. I wish him well and hope he finds answers and comfort somewhere else.

(01 Dec '13, 18:30) Dollar Bill

"Don't understand. Is Flowsurfer's mother is being supported by US Tax Dollars in Brazil?"

Don't be ridiculous Bill ~ read what I wrote again & then click on edited. For example = rhetorical & her = Jai. Evidently, @ursixx forgot she said she had SSI & Medicaid. If you have Medicaid you don't have medical bills to worry about. SSI would entitle you to food stamps, fuel assistance, free gov cell phones & minutes, etc etc etc. Don't you recall your discussion on entitlements?

(06 Dec '13, 02:17) ele

@ursixx @Jai @Wade @Dollar Bill @ikaruss21 & anyone else who is interested. I had a few comments in response to a few of the things said here. I lumped them together here:

(03 Jan '14, 23:33) ele
showing 2 of 29 show 27 more comments

You want the truth?

Alright, I tell you.. look around your reality.. go up to a woman ask for sex.. as she slaps you or walks away.. you have to ask yourself why right?

People have a billion reasons of LACK/negative to refuse each other such a profoundly pleasurable service

His nose is too big, I only have sex with white guys, they need to exercise more and have less body fat..

So let's be clear we INVENTED "rape" because there's too much LACK in sex and more so.. the word RAPE is all about LACK in sex.. it is negative description of a sexual act.. and it is all because we have a lot of LACK in sex..

Above someone said it is a 'violation' and they couldn't be more WRONG.. each of us here in reality AGREE to be here.. it is a agreement to be alive and to have a rape experience to you (all creation is agreement/manifestation)

Anyway to answer your question specifically "Why is rape such a big deal?"

It is the belief system of the day.. look into the past if you want to see belief systems of old that are being neutralized "today" in the 1900's it might have been acceptable to dress up with some guys in white and go lynch a negro and that was TOTALLY ACCEPTABLE and A-Okay back then

Just 10-20 years ago it was totally acceptable to stop gays from getting married have you noticed this belief system is being neutralized?

So just give it time/patience.. you will see the rape/big deal thing be neutralized as well :)


answered 24 Nov '13, 12:02

themaster's gravatar image


Most negros that were lynched, were lynched because white women accused them of rape.

(24 Nov '13, 15:10) flowsurfer

Gay marriage is nonsensical. Gays have NEVER been prevented from getting married, it's simply that marriage literally means a union between a man and a woman, because it is based on the biology of procreation. There is a reason we call the person with whom a married person is cheating on their spouse their "lover"; marriage itself has nothing to do with love. If we have gay marriage, we might as well not have marriage at all.

(24 Nov '13, 15:10) flowsurfer

My question is mainly motivated by the sense that our moral standards are completely senseless and judging ourselves based on them is madness. I can't honestly tell if Barrack Obama is any better than Osama bin Laden and I don't know if there is any way to judge anyone as "innocent", because I have noticed that even children (who I would like to think are always innocent) do not naturally respect other people (in fact, they are often more cruel and egotistical than adults).

(24 Nov '13, 15:21) flowsurfer

Rape has nothing to do with sex. It is violence. Violence is, and will always be a "big deal",unacceptable and excercised by people who vibrate at a low level.

(25 Nov '13, 14:40) Pebbles88

@Pebbles88 Except violence really isn't really a "big deal" or "unacceptable" in our society. Violence is normal and widespread, and supported by just about everyone, as long as it is done in their favor.

(25 Nov '13, 15:44) flowsurfer

Then the question shouldn't be "Why is rape such a big deal" but rather "Why isn't all forms of violence a big deal"?

(26 Nov '13, 04:34) Pebbles88

Historically, rape was a big deal because a woman was considered to be the property or her father, and then her husband later when she got married. To rape another man's woman was more akin to stealing from him (stealing his chance to procreate). These days rape is such a big deal because it highlights a lot of gender issues that still need too be dealt with. IMO.

(26 Nov '13, 08:05) cassiopeia

@cassiopeia I am frankly astounded by the fact your comment got two thumbs up and my question is -4 votes in the gutter.

(26 Nov '13, 11:02) flowsurfer

@flowsurfer "If we have gay marriage, we might as well not have marriage at all" That's sad. I have gay friends & I would not deny them the rights a married couple have or the union of a same sex marriage if they so desire. Same sex marriage is legal in 25- 30% of the states in the US.

@themaster "So just give it time/patience.. you will see the rape/big deal thing be neutralized as well" I sincerely doubt this & hope not.

Good comment @Cass

(26 Nov '13, 16:02) ele

@ele As far as gay marriage is concerned, I actually think marriage is a dying institution anyway and the whole thing completely meaningless at this point in history. If gays want that fantasy, go ahead. Marriage is just a contract. They cannot have the same kind of contract as heterosexual couples because biology makes it impossible for the terms to be the same. But if all they want is the title, like some aristocrat clinging to a glorious past, really, who cares? I certainly don't.

(26 Nov '13, 16:44) flowsurfer

@ele "I sincerely doubt this & hope not." have a look around your reality/world in 20-30 year's time and maybe you will see this..? (I just happen to be good at knowing the future! ;) )

(26 Nov '13, 18:07) themaster

@ele Cassiopeia's comment was not a "good" comment, it was psychotic.

(27 Nov '13, 13:02) flowsurfer

@ele Again speaking on the topic of homosexual marriage. Marriage has only one purpose: to clearly identify the father of a child. That is the only reason marriage exists. And it exists primarily for one reason: the lack of control by women over pregnancy. With multiple cheap, safe and effective birth control methods, legal abortions, and paternity tests that (fraud aside) are 100% accurate, marriage no longer has a purpose. It is obsolete. It means absolutely nothing if gays marry or not.

(27 Nov '13, 14:43) flowsurfer

@flow I knew I should have responded to this yesterday before you put your foot in your mouth again. I'll be back -- not ignoring you.

(27 Nov '13, 17:49) ele

I didn't put my foot in my mouth ele. I fully respect the idea of romantic love, regardless of the gender of the people involved. Marriage has nothing to do with it. It literally exists for no reason other than to protect the biological family. It is illogical and meaningless for gay people to marry.

(27 Nov '13, 19:32) flowsurfer

And cassiopeia's comment shows she is so lost in some kind of feminist delusion that she thinks rape is a "gender issue", when men are routinely raped. She speaks of the custodianship of women in the past without regard for the brutal slavery of men today. Incest was a crime, the father did not "own" their daughter's sexuality. We are moving to a society where everyone is what women used to be: a child. And who are the guardians of these citizen-children today? Eventually nobody will be.

(27 Nov '13, 19:33) flowsurfer

I don't think she even read what I wrote because her comment has nothing to do with anything that the question was about.

(27 Nov '13, 19:34) flowsurfer

@flowsurfer - 1. I wasn't responding to your question, I was responding to @themaster's answer. 2.That comment was not meant as a standalone, I was going to continue it with a few others to fully explain my POV, but my internet connection died and I haven't logged in to IQ for a while. I can't really be bothered with this discussion, I don't see it going anywhere, and I don't enjoy conversations where it's obvious where someone is more concerned about being right than about discussion.

(08 Dec '13, 12:33) cassiopeia

Also: psychotic? Feminist delusion? This is IQ, not Youtube Comments section.

(08 Dec '13, 12:39) cassiopeia

I will briefly respond to your comment: Fathers owned a daughters sexuality not in an incestuous sense, but because her virtue made her a higher prize to exchange for whatever the groom could bring to the table (political alliance, bride price, land, status, etc). Rape is def. a gender issue, even when men are raped (percentages of male rape and sexual assault are very very low tho). Also, I never said that one injustice excuses another.

(08 Dec '13, 12:40) cassiopeia
  • very low when compared to rape and sexual assault on women, that is, before you start picking apart that sentence too.
(08 Dec '13, 12:42) cassiopeia

@Cass I haven't had any time for IQ either & when I get a chance I'm going to post an A & a couple links I think you may be interested in. I have no desire to debate the subject either; but I did want to say I was bothered by the comments made to you to & I wish I would have posted the wiki link immediately.

Social views and constructs of rape

"In ancient history, rape was viewed less as a type of assault on the female, than a serious" Part A

(15 Dec '13, 20:50) ele

Part B " matter. The damage due to loss of virginity was reflected in her reduced prospects in finding a husband and in her bride price. This was especially true in the case of betrothed virgins, as the loss of chastity was perceived as severely depreciating her value to a prospective husband. In such cases, the law would void the betrothal and demand financial compensation from the rapist, payable to the woman's household, whose "goods" were "damaged" It's an interesting article for lack

(15 Dec '13, 20:53) ele

Part C of another word. "Saint Thomas of Aquinas argued that rape, though sinful, was much less sinful than masturbation or coitus interruptus, because it fulfilled the procreative function of sex, while the other acts violated the purpose of sex"

No wonder "thou shall NOT rape" didn't make the top 10.

During the colonization of America is was perfectly ok for the Christian men to rape Native American women cause they were viewed as pagan & not Christian.

(15 Dec '13, 20:57) ele
showing 2 of 24 show 22 more comments

Rape is against the wishes of individual. Taxes, and other regulations in at least a democratic nations are subject to will of the people as a majority. I know sometimes systems seem a little broke but as long as its democracy people can change things and changes do happen through votes if those are the more pressing issues for the majority of people. governments always get voted out and another party forms govt.

So when govt raises taxes there is always another opposition offering lower tax to people etc. Same with most laws. i am not saying system is perfect but you can't compare to rape at all. The most critical issue usually is in the hands of people when it comes to democracy.


answered 25 Nov '13, 17:56

abrahamloa's gravatar image


So gang rape is okay?

(25 Nov '13, 18:12) flowsurfer

stop being silly! is not ok... bcoz its not whole people's wish... its only few individuals in the gang who wanted to rape.. democracy is not between 5 people in gang who rape 1 girl so its ok.. hello!! the fact that for a rape you go to jail is people's wish..

(25 Nov '13, 18:16) abrahamloa

I'm not being silly. It is not the wish of teenage men to be drafted into the army (otherwise they would VOLUNTEER!), yet the decision is made by a group of people composed of teenage men, adult men, teenage women and adult women. It is a form of gang rape. With taxes the same thing happens. In the past, the right to vote was tied somewhat to the ability to pay taxes (property) and the duty to serve in the army (being male). Now, those small common sense restrictions are seen as monstrous.

(25 Nov '13, 18:23) flowsurfer

Today there are far too many people doing charity with other people's money (through secret ballots no less), which isn't just a number but something that represents their life energy. I have nothing against charity, if you want to be in the army, go sign up, if you like rough sex, all power to you. Black slaves were usually the minority and their enslavement usually supported by a majority; did that mean it was perfectly alright and slave owners didn't actually do anything wrong?

(25 Nov '13, 18:29) flowsurfer

1 - most countries don't have mandatory draft now and have it only when there is big war and they don't have enough people to send to war. I am not defending war but even in that case its still a govt by people that makes that decision... and govts were overturned because of making such decisions. i don't think this is treated lightly at all. People revolt when there is unjust war. Its not like they take it easy and only think rape is more worse. I don't think so.

(25 Nov '13, 18:35) abrahamloa

(oops didn't mean to post in BOLD.. don't know how that happened) Govts have dire consequences when they send people to war when its not necessary. Parties lose election on this... so it is serious issue.

(25 Nov '13, 18:36) abrahamloa

in democracies usually laws and regulations are settled by people if its more critical issues. I don't see your comparison with rape at all. It does not make sense to me.. policies and regulations naturally have diff perspectives and they need to be settled through political system through dialog - there is no other way.. you and i won't agree whats the correct tax %age.. ... i agree the system is not best but at least there is some system to do that in democracy...

(25 Nov '13, 18:39) abrahamloa

Differences in political systems are not settled through dialog, they are settled through the threat of violence. I realize there is no other way, but there is a difference between the threat of a rapist to kill his victim if he resists and the threat of a rapee to kill his rapist if he doesn't back off. My concern is not the tax rate but the predatory perspective many people seem to have, of thinking "I want the government to provide for this and I don't care who suffers to pay for it".

(25 Nov '13, 18:59) flowsurfer

Why do you think the right to refuse sex is more sacred than the right to refuse taxation or military service?

(25 Nov '13, 19:39) flowsurfer

There was recently a proposal here to make it mandatory for people studying medicine to work in a public hospital for a number of years in order to graduate (and therefore be allowed to practice medicine). This is because there is a so-called "shortage" of doctors to work in public hospitals. Cuban slaves are being brought in to address that shortage. Well, a case could be made that there is a shortage of quality sex for undesirable people, or pregnant women for society in general.

(25 Nov '13, 19:40) flowsurfer

how much you tax is a perspective... some think 35% is too much ... some think its ok and they are fine... and these are things that are debatable... so its illogical to argue taxing is like raping...

(25 Nov '13, 19:45) abrahamloa

raping is like murderin someone or stealing and burglary... laws and regulations do not come under that umbrella... when it comes to financial crimes in Wall street or in political circles.. remember when they are caught in a bribery or other scams they are sent to jail... its not a free pass if you violate intentionally..

(25 Nov '13, 19:47) abrahamloa

Some think sex, even rough sex, even outright bondage is okay too. The question is not about the interaction between people who think it is ok, but the interaction between the people who don't.

(25 Nov '13, 19:47) flowsurfer

military service being mandatory happens only under grave situation.. also here its it is in the nations defense interests... now there is difference between that and rape.... i mean you need to take the main intention into question here... if you had corrupt people trying to use this in their interest - you need to understand that they can be put in jail....

(25 Nov '13, 19:49) abrahamloa

when it comes to laws and regulations... misusing them is a biggest crime... so its the intent that is important.... ideally laws and regulations were created for people's will to be preserved.... of course there are corrupt people mis-using them and you are right to point out.. but i want to point out that when they are caught missing they are punished... just like a rapist is punished...

(25 Nov '13, 19:52) abrahamloa

Military service happens under grave threat to the political supremacy of a particular group, not a nation. Germans were drafted to fight for the nazis, russians to fight for the soviets, chinese to fight for Mao. When France was occupied by the nazis, life for the majority of the french did not end (in Poland, it wasn't quite as nice). If the group controlling your society is much better than the enemy group, it isn't that hard to find volunteers, assuming the war isn't hopeless.

(25 Nov '13, 20:19) flowsurfer

you are talking about dictatorships.. there there is no law... i am talking about democratic setups... you know that war crimes is absolutely punishable and some of them were in fact punished later.. even saddam when he fell was executed for the crimes he did as a dictator..

(25 Nov '13, 20:24) abrahamloa

I do not believe there is an inherent difference between monarchy and republicanism.

(25 Nov '13, 20:26) flowsurfer

well my friend there is huge difference.... in a monarchy if a king/dictator is unjust you don't have any option .. today we have so many rights as a citizen .. you have no idea how you would fare w/o those... in todays system you can fight injustice and sooo many have.. how do you think Gays have gotten their rights?? ... there are sooo many anti racism laws... there are so man laws that protect you in employment...

(25 Nov '13, 20:32) abrahamloa

i am not saying people still exploit in diff way... but this is way better than what used to be...

(25 Nov '13, 20:33) abrahamloa

Of course you have an option, you can kill or otherwise overthrow the king by supporting his uncle, cousin, sister or whatever. Countless kings have been overthrown for abusing their power. The king never has absolute power because political power is a function of social alliances. Kings would seek the support of the people against the aristocracy, or of the aristocracy against the people. Just like in republics. There is no difference.

(25 Nov '13, 20:48) flowsurfer

I'm not really judging if today's system is better or worse. I'm asking a personal question for people, for them to look within themselves. Do you support using violence (and the state is by definition the institution that organizes violence, so anything you want from the state by definition is something you want to supply by violence) in order to satisfy your desires? If you do, how are you different from a rapist?

(25 Nov '13, 20:51) flowsurfer

so you would prefer to live in country where you are suppressed than in a democratic setup??

(25 Nov '13, 20:52) abrahamloa

for you information,humanity has already been through all that and at this point democracy is the best setup... of course this needs to still be refined and its not perfect.. but saying monarchy/dictotorship would have been better is i don't what to call that... you are just saying it but if you were at receiving end of injustice only then you would know...

(25 Nov '13, 20:54) abrahamloa

of course flow, i agree that people who misuse the system they can be doing worse then rape... because it could affect millions of people.. i am not denying that... but you should state that instead of saying rape is same as taxing... there is huge difference in that..

(25 Nov '13, 20:56) abrahamloa

LOL... I am suppressed in a democratic setup!

(25 Nov '13, 20:57) flowsurfer

laws and regulations are a beautiful way to come to some sort of consensus.. otherwise society cannot run... now there is abuse of it there is not doubt.. but there is lot of good out of it too.. .just compare to few hundred yrs back... we have quite a few rights ...

(25 Nov '13, 20:58) abrahamloa

lol.. trust me my blood boils too and i want to kill some politicians... but until some better system comes out at least electing govt seem to be better than other forms...

(25 Nov '13, 21:01) abrahamloa

I am at the receiving end of injustice. I am not advocating any particular system. I'm not anti-democracy. I'm saying if you support taxing someone in order to finance one of your desires, you are engaged in an act that is not the same as rape, it is worse. It is worse because the principle violated is the same but the extent of the violation is greater. It is not important if you are a king or a voter.

(25 Nov '13, 21:03) flowsurfer

taxing is done for the overall nation's cause. All the roads, drinking water system, electricity, police to keep crime away, etc. Its not done to fulfill desires of others.. just cause some people abuse system you can't deny the good thats allowed us to live more civilized life. Those abuse need to be punished. Yes people are being punished and sometimes some people get away maybe but eventually they will pay for their actions through law of karma

(26 Nov '13, 13:57) abrahamloa

you need to take charge of your life and live it. and not blame other factors. Only you and you alone are responsible for your life. Its not like you been put under some detention and being tortured or something... there are some injustices but they are not stopping you to live your life. I am not saying its easy to get over -ve thoughts.

(26 Nov '13, 14:00) abrahamloa

But you need take responsibility and at this point you are not. Its ok. Everyone realize at diff times. Eventually when you do you will realize you were blocking yourself earlier from being who you are and living life fully.

(26 Nov '13, 14:00) abrahamloa

It is easy to take responsibility when you feel you have power and freedom (something I have desperately tried to feel). Not so easy when everywhere you turn you are told "No, you can't do that", "No, you have to do things this way", "Sure, work hard so we can take your money and stop complaining", "Who cares about crime, just don't resist and hope nobody burns you alive, because if you do resist, you are a criminal to be thrown in jail to be gang raped by other criminals with HIV."

(26 Nov '13, 14:53) flowsurfer

Who am I really blocking myself from being? Seriously? Answer me that. Show me the "role model" that I can embrace. Can't really see one.

(26 Nov '13, 14:58) flowsurfer

you can't understand now.. you are not at a place to hear it cause you are fixated on having something in a very specific way... when the answer is given you say thats not what you like... so you are right now in a deadlock... catch 22... you need to ease up and let Universe provide you .. you may think right now Universe cannot give you what you want since you are fixated on that one thing...

(26 Nov '13, 15:20) abrahamloa

but if you ease up slowly with time Universe will bring you what you need and it will be amazing... but for that you need to stop your bickering and negative energy temporarily... and unfortunately right now you don't want to do that... since you think its hopeless... and i am saying its not hopeless if you for now gently let go and wait ...

(26 Nov '13, 15:21) abrahamloa

just enjoy the things that are already there in your life... and move slowly with small things that you find joy in... if you do this its guaranteed with time you will become who you REALLY ARE and life will be amazing and you will life fully... but you need to temporarily abandon your stance and trust the Universe.. this is the ANSWER ...

(26 Nov '13, 15:23) abrahamloa

you have read Neville.. Neville never asks you to dwell on the -ve on what cannot happen etc... the -ve energy needs to go ...

(26 Nov '13, 15:24) abrahamloa

right now your dominant vibration is life S****cks and that you are powerless... and you need to let go of that.. this is it ... it is hard from where you are.. and i am not denying it... but just say for a year i will be easy and appreciate smallest things in life... and keep that vibration and not complaint about anything... then you will see the shift even in a month or 2...

(26 Nov '13, 15:26) abrahamloa

I went through a break down which resulted in me doing exactly that. It didn't work. I thought my life was going to improve. I felt like I was on a different universe from before. It got worse. While others moved forward through sheer favor. Being general doesn't work. You can't invalidate my personal experience through theory of what should work. My hope is that I wasn't specific, deliberate and disciplined enough and that if I manage to correct those deficiencies I'll be alright.

(26 Nov '13, 15:49) flowsurfer

every person i ever read from wayne Dyer, Abraham hicks, Bashar, Paramahansa Yogananda, dalai lama, lao tzu, Neville, Eastern western philosophers saints and you name it have said the same thing at a core level. If it has not worked then you may want to be just a tad bit more patient. Be more easy. It will work. Even for me its not like every single desire at the highest level has manifested. But there is core essence where life has been lifted up to live more fully than ever before.

(26 Nov '13, 16:47) abrahamloa

The problem is that the people who vote outnumber the people who work for a living.

(26 Nov '13, 18:01) No Brainer

@No Brainer and those unemployed tended to vote republican "Areas with high unemployment shift toward Romney Counties with higher unemployment generally favored GOP nominee Mitt Romney, and Romney tended to do better in those counties than John McCain in 2008. But since most of those counties are small and rural, they did not significantly help Romney's overall vote count."

(27 Nov '13, 02:29) ursixx

..."This map shows how Romney and Obama fared compared to 2008 in counties where the unemployment rate is higher than the national average." at least in 2012

(27 Nov '13, 02:30) ursixx

Romney is not really that different from Obama, but consider this: Perhaps the unemployment rate is higher because they can't afford business, while in other counties people receive enough handouts and government jobs to keep things running. The standard of living is very high in Brasilia; it's not because they actually produce more wealth than other parts of the country, it's because it is where it ends up. But this is not about partisan politics, the question has nothing to do with that.

(27 Nov '13, 13:31) flowsurfer

The real problem is ppl speak without fact checking. Ppl who work for a living outnumber ppl who vote. Ever hear of a search engine aka Google - bing, etc?

(27 Nov '13, 18:06) ele

Another joke @ele. Maybe the people (ppl) who work outnumber the people who vote. One way or the other Haw Haw, Come on Mountain Woman, where's your sense of humor?

(28 Nov '13, 13:30) Dollar Bill

Sorry I missed this last time - didn't mean to ignore you. Yes l recall a similar comment made by you & I did laugh. You made quite a few factual errors; but I didn't want to embarrass you. I have to admit tho, I nearly fell off my chair laughing.. Great strategy --- pretending to be joking to hide ones lack of knowledge.. Unfortunately, being ill informed in no laughing matter..

(06 Dec '13, 02:09) ele
showing 2 of 48 show 46 more comments

Rape is very serious and many times is very violent. It happens from babies not even 2 years old to women in their 90's It happens to women and men. It is about power.

There have been found babies in dumpsters that were ripped open so far up the internal organs were punctured!

Read the book "How to say no to a rapist and survive." This book is by Fredric Stroska. Mr. Stroska is a psychologist that studied rapist and victims for years before he wrote his book. He is also the Soke of our school. He founded the Bushido Karate School in the late fifties early sixties.

Rape turns into murder very quickly. The rapist panics trying to keep the victim from screaming. One little girl had her panties shoved down her throat to keep her quite. It worked she was forever silenced, she smoothed to death.

Rape is horrible and should not be taken lightly at all!


answered 27 Nov '13, 10:02

Wade%20Casaldi's gravatar image

Wade Casaldi

What you describe is not simply rape, it is rape followed by murder, or rape combined with physical assault, or even murder through rape. Those are all horrible things and nobody, at all, denies that. Most rape is nowhere near as violent. The question is, is your heart any purer than that of a rapist?

(27 Nov '13, 12:34) flowsurfer

On a side note, @Wade I know you will probably take this the wrong way but I need to say it. Note that I am judging from a distance and so have both advantages and disadvantages relative to you, I realize I could be wrong. However, please be very careful with Jai. I do not believe you are safe. She has shown many signs of having an abusive personality and personal history. I am being very serious and I do not wish to disrespect you but please be careful.

(27 Nov '13, 13:53) flowsurfer

@jai Please read The Traveller's answer to you on the satanic abuse question.

(27 Nov '13, 14:03) Catherine

@Catherine-I did! It was excellent advice...@flowsurfer and @ all-However, all of you have me placed somewhere between a psycho and a murderer...based on only partial stories and all of them jumbled up in a non-chronological way....(-cont.below)

(27 Nov '13, 21:44) Jaianniah

@flowsurfer-I was nineteen years young when I tried to "run over my husband"- after he first verbally, and then physically abused me....and tried to prevent me from getting away from him after slapping me, hitting me, chasing me outside when I tried to get away, and finishing up with an an attempt at choking me through the car window among other things...(-cont. below)

(27 Nov '13, 21:50) Jaianniah

@flowsurfer-Thanks a lot for ####### me off. I really need it after the week I have been through...@flowsurfer- Ooh god, it's all so sordid, all of this. You are making this sordid by repeating this story all over IQ. Stop it right now! Flowsurfer, there are always, always two sides to every story...Quit telling Wade to be careful around me...I am not even with that man anymore...all he ever did was bait me into losing my temper...STHU!

(27 Nov '13, 21:51) Jaianniah

I would safely assume Jai received an email notification since it was her question The Traveller responded to @Catherine. I agree with the points you made in your answer @Wade; but your reacting to the word rape only. You are NOT the only one who is reacting totally on emotion. He stated numerous times he was opposed to rape. There is so much more to the question. Has a lot of depth.

(27 Nov '13, 22:07) ele

@flowsurfer--and one more point- He was just dumb enough to think that he was going to stop a 3,000 pound, All-American Sedan made of real steel and chrome, being driven by a very scared and pregnant, just-beaten teenager, by placing his body directly in the path of its wheels...Pretty stupid, if you ask me...He ran off, and I went out and did not come back until I was calm enough to face him and deal with what had been done. He never abused me physically again.

(27 Nov '13, 22:07) Jaianniah

@flowsurfer-Now, enough with the "Jai is a potential murderess" stories, okay????? ♥

(27 Nov '13, 22:08) Jaianniah

@Jai I did consider the possibility that he actually deserved it, however, the way you described him did not indicate that at all, it indicated a very nice person.

(27 Nov '13, 22:35) flowsurfer

@Jai And while that story was a red flag to me, I did not flip my perception of you from victim to abuser based on that alone. There were many other red flags. There is really nothing you can tell me at this point to change that perception, you lost my trust. Wade is the only one that could convince me I am wrong and I most certainly hope I am. He is also the only one for whom this matters. I am merely asking him to pay attention and judge carefully because it is his life.

(27 Nov '13, 22:45) flowsurfer

@Jai For example, "all he ever did was bait me into losing my temper.." is something abusers usually say. It is not how an abused person describes an abusive partner, it is the other way around. If I am wrong, please forgive me. Please understand my perspective. Do not be distressed by my mistake. People are more likely to think I am a bully than to think you are an abuser, so don't even worry about that, your reputation is pretty safe. Even if I am right.

(27 Nov '13, 23:03) flowsurfer

@Jai You do not have to defend yourself or talk about it. You don't owe anyone an explanation. I never once thought you were guilty of attempted murder or would be contemplating a murder now or in the future. To be fair, you did portray your X as kind of a good guy & stated you both joked about the incident later - like it was no big deal. Personally, I thought you were taking dramatic license & possibly turning a minor incident into a drama to make a better story & there is absolutely ( I )

(27 Nov '13, 23:08) ele

( II ) nothing wrong with that either. NOW WE KNOW. As for what U did. No reason to feel shame or guilt. Survival instincts kick in & frankly imo, he had it coming if he did what you say he did. I think you did it more to scare him & to stop him than to harm him because if you actually wanted him dead; he'd be dead. You had every right to protect yourself & your unborn child. I'm sorry you had no one to help you & you weren't able to get away from him prior to the 1st time he laid a hand on U.

(27 Nov '13, 23:17) ele

@Jai I am not going to go out of my way to deal with you, positively or negatively. I am not going to stalk your posts or censor mine. I don't even want to reply to anything else you write because I am not capable of helping you at all. I believe your stories about your childhood and I am horrified you went through that but I don't think you came out of them as the nice person you project yourself as. Neville teaches that I should forgive people that fall into negative states. I will try this.

(27 Nov '13, 23:18) flowsurfer

@Jai I shared my opinion because not everyone thinks like flow. He zeroed in on that particular paragraph & I gave that paragraph little or no thought till he brought it up. Again, you owe us no explanation & I don't think anyone is judging you either. I NEVER once thought you were a crazy psycho either I've never read a post written by you which indicated in any way, shape or form you were suffering from a MH issue other than possibly PTSD & certainly not DID or any other one you mentioned

(27 Nov '13, 23:23) ele

@Jai Okay. I forgive the negative image of you I had in my mind. I see you as healed, physically, emotionally and mentally. Now I'm going to try and see myself that way. Wish me luck.

(27 Nov '13, 23:23) flowsurfer

in numerous posts on IQ. I'm also not qualified to diagnosis PTSD either. Just a feeling. You also stated on IQ you had permanent brain damage (we tried to convince you it didn't have to be fact) & you received a disability on your 1st try. I absolutely believe you. No doubts. I think it was wrong for anyone to tell you this. I also know disabilities come up for review every few yrs unless they will result in death or you turn 65 w/in 2 or 3 yrs. Length depends on the reason for the disability.

(27 Nov '13, 23:43) ele

Permanent may have a dif meaning to SSA . That is what I meant about the govt comment. I also did NOT mean to imply PTSD was not serious especially if you've suffered from it for decades. I know how serious it is. Ask me if you have ?'s in regards to anything I said. I do NOT want any more misunderstandings & I do not want you to interpret something I said wrong or think I'm implying something I'm not. Don't read anything into it that is not there. Ask me firs, please..

(28 Nov '13, 00:03) ele

@Wade This question ended up being very therapeutic for @Jai (Law of Polarity) Long time since I saw Jai emit any fire or passion aka light. She's taking her power back. Good to see. Seems flow & Jai are similar in vibration... This discussion did them both good.

(28 Nov '13, 04:08) ele

@ele I don't receive email notifications about answers to my questions so why would I assume Jai does?

(28 Nov '13, 04:15) Catherine

@Catherine Would you like to? I thought the replies under your answers & questions were automatic & you had to turn off this feature if you did not want email notifications. If you want email - go to your profile - click on user tools - than email notifications. Select the ones you wish. I don't receive all mine & mail to the mon can be delayed by hrs. I know it was automatic for me .. Maybe they changed it..

(28 Nov '13, 04:21) ele

@ele I've no idea why I don't get emails maybe I turned them off at some point, maybe they've changed it.

(28 Nov '13, 05:03) Catherine

@Catherine That is a good question. I know another member said they turned theirs off. I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't want to subscribe to their own questions. They many have changed things cause I wondered why a new member was surprised by my comments. She said she just saw them I should have asked her about email.. Now I don't feel so bad when you never answer my questions. I thought - well, ok...

(28 Nov '13, 05:10) ele

@ele I never answer your questions ... would you mind telling me which ones? I always, always respond to everyone who answers my questions - I consider it good manners and good karma (assuming I am aware of it) and I always vote up the answers unless I absolutely hate the answer which is rare and I can't remember it even happening. Please do point it out to me. Thank you.

(28 Nov '13, 05:28) Catherine

@ele That was rude of me to expect you to do the sifting for me ... let me have a look at my questions later to see where you have answered. I will get back to you. I've got to get on with some work now ... IQ is distracting me too much at the moment!

(28 Nov '13, 05:31) Catherine

@Catherine It doesn't matter. I can't recall now. I think it was under answers & not questions.. I just figured you were very busy... It would not have been answers to your questions -- it would have been questions to you inbedded in comments.

(28 Nov '13, 05:39) ele

@ele OKay - I'll try to do better and give answers but sometimes if I feel no good will come of it, I do ignore comments. I can't specifically remember ignoring any from you though it is hard keeping up with all the different threads! I've been ignored many times even when I have answered questions (Flowsurfer recently). I used to find it rude but I'm OKay with it now - people have their own reasons, best just to let them be.

(28 Nov '13, 07:09) Catherine

@Catherine NO, not rude. Don't feel that way. I never felt that way. I just figured they never saw the ? Even blu did that to me several times & he wasn't being rude. I assumed he missed them. I guess Maybe I didn't use the question mark at the end of the sentence. Someone else mentioned that to me recently - they thought I was making a statement instead of asking a question. I miss email notifications. I can always find you & ask again -- some of the newbies you don't see too often ..

(28 Nov '13, 07:33) ele

@flowsurfer After living with Jai for two years, you would think that maybe I would notice some kind of violent tendencies. I have not witnessed ANY violent tendencies in two years with her. I believe I am pretty safe and I believe you owe Jai a big apology for your comment here and elsewhere we saw a much worse comment that as I just proved is unfounded and gives users a very poor impression of Jai based on what you said. I am teaching her karate for physical rehabilitation.

(28 Nov '13, 13:19) Wade Casaldi

@Wade I have pretty much lost all respect for you with your previous comment about the draft, however, I will tell you this, and it is the last thing I will say regarding Jai, even assuming I don't leave this site altogether. Look into the close relatives she says hate her. Look into why, and not just by asking for her side of the story. What is the opinion that her children have of her? I think the fact nobody wanted to accompany her to her knee surgery is very revealing. Don't be an idiot.

(28 Nov '13, 15:42) flowsurfer

@Wade Sorry for the "don't be an idiot" part. Look, I really hope my impression is completely false. More than that, I realize that Jai went through very traumatic experiences which literally ###### up her mind. I do not think I would be that great if I had gone through that. We all have some kind of darkness within. If you see the good in her and are willing to take the risks in order to help her heal, that is perfectly understandable. We all also have our light within.

(29 Nov '13, 08:48) flowsurfer
showing 2 of 32 show 30 more comments

@Flowsurfer Go up into the very secluded mountains of north Georgia, listen for banjo music.

Yell "I hate you (hangtag), (hangtag) mountain (hangtag) people!!" and get a first (so to speak) hand example of how tiresome male rape can be.

You might find this same experience more easily. Just depends how much of a pain in the (hangtags) you want to be.

And think about this. I may just may be the most honest person, the most helpful person for you on IQ.

Experience and enjoy.


answered 25 Nov '13, 08:42

No%20Brainer's gravatar image

No Brainer


Tiresome is not quite the word I would use to describe being raped.

(25 Nov '13, 09:08) flowsurfer

Why do you feel the need to specify "male" rape? Would it not be "tiresome" if a woman raped me? Or maybe you think being raped as a male by other males is just kind of annoying, which is why you describe it as "tiresome"?

(25 Nov '13, 09:14) flowsurfer

Whats a hangtag? A hashtag? I get the 4th one. What are the first 3? Got a link or a hint? Goin' with my gut. You're saying all the ppl who live in the Appalachians are like that? That's an awful racist remark. You really are that girl * We figured she was rich, loaded to the hilt - And we figured she had class like the Vanderbilts - 'Cause we had heard for years how she was so well reared - How was we to know they meant the way she was built! that girl who married the old

(26 Nov '13, 06:43) ele

old .. (hashtag) named Bill. The Appalachians reminds me of a friend of mine. He was a travelling gynecologist. He only had good things to say about those mountain folks. Shame Shame @No Brainer.

Here's a link about the Appalachian culture.

Here's a vibe you'll appreciate. I'd write out the name; but I went to urban dictionary 1st. Ew!

@Flow you play guitar like that?

(26 Nov '13, 06:52) ele

I ran out of room -- if you didn't figure it out -- it was I who cast the 2nd downvote. Not that you give a flying fig @No Brainer. @flow I'm very sorry you have to go through this abuse... especially in your state of mind....

(26 Nov '13, 07:03) ele

Whatever. Figs? Ha! You seem proud of your inconsequential down vote. Ha! Again!

The remark was aimed at the movie "Deliverance" so very pleased that you got finally got around to understanding that: :) :)

Any kind of rape is awful, unquestionably. But I think that men have less, in general, understanding of the horror of being raped than women. Could you understand and agree?

(26 Nov '13, 12:30) No Brainer

Absolutely not.

(26 Nov '13, 12:35) flowsurfer

And @No Brainer , quite honestly, I don't ever want to read anything else you ever write.

(26 Nov '13, 12:38) flowsurfer

@ele your venom is doing more to you than to me and Bill. I am sure that you know all too well the self-inflicted damage, though I guess that you probably blame others. Please don't let this continue to hurt you.

as for us -- The barking of dogs does not hurt the clouds.

(26 Nov '13, 12:48) No Brainer

@flowsurfer - are you speaking of rape from experience?

You can read what you like or not. It is of little consequence to me.

(26 Nov '13, 12:50) No Brainer

@No Brainer Wow, I voted your answer down & now you voted down 3 of my most popular answers. Did that make you feel better? Did you read the link I posted on the Appalachian ppl? It's a great read -- especially when it comes to their values. external link (opens in new window)

NO venom intended . Did you not find the humor in my comments?

(26 Nov '13, 14:16) ele

You sure can dish it out...

"and get a first (so to speak) hand example of how tiresome male rape can be." "first (So to speak)" What do you mean by that?

(26 Nov '13, 14:42) ele

@No Brainer I have no conflict with either you or Bill. I like Bill a lot & I think you are normally quite 'fun' & we share many similar views. I do not like when you or Bill make ethnic or racial slurs. It does NOT mean I don't like the two of you. You can like/love someone & not like something they do. I have a low tolerance for any type of bigotry. It's who I am. I also realize you may not even be aware you are doing it & I'm certain neither you or Bill intended to offend anyone. The

(26 Nov '13, 17:43) ele

The remark I made on @Nik 's thread was out of line & I believe I said just that. Chalk it up to a bad hair day. As for Meta - I didn't like what he said & he didn't care much for what I said either. Seems to me he actually does care what ppl think of him after all. Stop by for pie someday ...

(26 Nov '13, 17:51) ele

I think everyone should see what you were referencing in your A @No Brainer I was young when the movie Deliverance came out in 1972 & most ppl here are younger than me.

That was vile ...


Content Warning (from you tube)

This video may be inappropriate for some users.

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(26 Nov '13, 19:09) ele

I apologize if anyone was offended. I guess you tube must think all IQ viewers & or members are 18 or older.

(26 Nov '13, 19:51) ele

@No Brainer Figs? Yummy nutritional fiber packed fruit. It's important to get sufficient fiber in your diet especially as you age. I wasn't proud of my downvote - just thought I would admit it. Just saying - nothing more - nothing less. I voted your answer down cause I did not like it. I had no idea you would get so angry. As for the saying - it means you don't care. You didn't think I was referring to one of the miracles of Jesus in the bible -- Jesus cursing the fig tree, did you?

(26 Nov '13, 22:04) ele

(B) Seems very applicable; (cursing) so I shall post the story

Matthew 21:18-22[3]

"Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, "May you never bear fruit again!" Immediately the tree withered. When the disciples saw this, they were amazed"

(26 Nov '13, 22:19) ele

(C) "How did the fig tree wither so quickly?" they asked. Jesus replied, "Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

Beware the power of a curse backed up by belief & a prayer.

Scary stuff... those bible stories...

(26 Nov '13, 22:21) ele

(D) Bible verses are up for interpretation. It' also a matter of belief - whether this was viewed good or bad. We all know how judging is so limiting .. We don't want to be limited - we want to expand.

WTS I believe the moral of the story is this - "even Jesus can have a bad hair day".

Sorry the weather was so awful in your area @No Brainer & you couldn't get outside. Your weather made the national news. The sun will come out tomorrow I hope....

(26 Nov '13, 23:34) ele

Chuckle, chuckle - I think, @ele that you are a sterling answer to your buddy @flowsurfer's question above. A resounding YES from @ele, hun, you have are & do answer this question.

Perhaps the two of you could get married or, at least get a room together. Work out your frustrations without involving other people.

I would be willing to bet that you are single. Large bucks

I read what you wrote about Jai and her plea for help with her rape situation.

And NO, I don't like most of your posts.

(27 Nov '13, 10:23) No Brainer

Have a nice day your self. Have heard the weather in Atlanta is cold and icy. You would like it there.

We are in the Bahamas, it is really beautiful here. We are looking at buying a really nice Bed and Breakfast near our condo.

Experience and TRY to enjoy. A while back you were promising to leave (back of palm to forehead), what happened there, hun?

(27 Nov '13, 10:33) No Brainer

Heard her laughing and went to investigate.

Just realized that NB is letting herself get into a silly and inappropriate argument. It is a no win. Taking her out to lunch on the beach, it is a grand, slightly overcast day.

(27 Nov '13, 10:42) Dollar Bill

@No Brainer You rarely post & now you're in the Bahamas & you can't find anything other to do than post on IQ. Why? Is something wrong? Where was Bill yesterday? Hope all is well between the 2 of you. I have to admit, I was a bit concerned about you dear & I'm so glad Bill took you on a vacation where you could get some much needed rest. I didn't mean to set you off. I didn't know you couldn't take negative feedback. You don't come off as the sensitive type. I've never seen you run (I)

(27 Nov '13, 16:55) ele

(II) erratically from thread to thread bellowing as you did either. Too many pina coladas or not enough? You seemed so confused. I wasn't sure if you knew where you were. I thought it was possible you didn't know what forum you were posting on. Did you confuse IQ with that shopping forum where members take out their daily frustrations on one another & then down vote the book & product reviews of other members cause they are mad. Your concern for Jai is touching but

(27 Nov '13, 17:00) ele

(III) you were kind of late to the party so to speak. The thread you expressed your concern on was about 4 yrs old. (glasses?) Your advice was good. I believe she said she's been in counseling for decades & continues therapy to this day. You should actually read IQ before making silly comments. Wait, I thought you did.). (CRS? - hey, it happens to the best of us) I do understand about the venting - it's so frustrating to see so many members 'stuck'. I know I feel like screaming at times &

(27 Nov '13, 17:17) ele

(IV) I do. Just ask Bill. hmm ... I wonder how he attracted the response he received & how LOA applies? Does this happen to him in RL too? @Cal advised me to explore the other side of my nature. I took his advice to heart; but I don't think anyone else appreciates it. Prob best to pick up drinking. It's never too late to acquire a new vice. Enjoy the fun in the sun & the rum. Where is @Cal - we could sing verses from the Pina Colada song to one another.

(27 Nov '13, 17:26) ele

@Dollar Bill I haven't stopped laughing since I read your response. lol I wanted to give you, your due. Hope the attention I gave your lovely lady made you smile too. "overcast day" Bill, I hope the sun shines soon. It's so good for ones mood & health - be it mental, spiritual or physical. I know she loves the sun, moon & sky as much as I do. Laughter always works for me. A good meal on the beach & good company should work wonders. Enjoy!

(27 Nov '13, 17:34) ele

You have no one to blame but yourself NB. You posted the Hee Haw song -- it was wayyyy tooooooo easy & I could NOT resist ... I can't believe neither of you saw the humor in it.......... You're only upset because your " wit " backfired on you.

(27 Nov '13, 18:35) ele

My, my, my, drop a rock in the pond and watch old @ele bob up and down. You been busy. Guess you have little else to do. You really are funny!!!You and Jesus having a Bad hair day? Haw Haw!

Yeah, Anne got bored and picked up the laptop. We are doing fine. Having a great time. Just got back last night. Have some people cleaning our house for a big Thanksgiving party tonight, so I am kicking back

(28 Nov '13, 13:44) Dollar Bill

I'd play with you a little more, but I have something more interesting to do. Haw Haw. Keep the humor flowing little girl. We love it! Make you part of a book I am writing. A medical book. Haw Haw.

Oh, I got bored and quit reading most of your above humor, too repetitive. But she asked if you were single? and if you and flowey might work out your problems in person? (That's a joke, girl)

(28 Nov '13, 13:45) Dollar Bill
(29 Nov '13, 05:51) ele
showing 2 of 32 show 30 more comments

Dear @IQ Moderator ♦♦

After Simon said this on Meta, I wasn't sure where I should ask this. Feel free to delete it, if it's not where it should be. I may write it up on Meta also & then delete it.

Until recently I believed the moderators were reading every post. Now I realize, this is not the case. I'm guessing another member flagged the comment made by @flowsurfer which ended up getting him suspended for intentional disruption of IQ.

I'm having trouble understanding why @flowsurfer was suspended or suspended for the reasons given.

This is a link to the question & the answer which is where flow made the comment which got him suspended. (or you can just scroll up)

Unless I'm missing something and a post was deleted that I'm not aware of, I believe an error was made. I don't think the moderator had time to fully investigate & based his decision partially on what a well respected member of IQ said when flagging the comment as well as discussions held earlier on the subject here.

If you go to @flowsurfer 's profile & click on "recent activity" you can follow his activity on IQ the day his acct was suspended.

I came online shortly after he was suspended & clicked on flow's recent activity.

According to flows recent activity, the last thing flow said prior to logging off the nite before was this ~

4 @Wade I'm sorry if I was harsh with you, I'm just in a very angry and depressed mood right now. (28 Nov, 19:42)flowsurfer

The next day he logged back on and made a comment at 8:08 which he edited 3 minutes later. I have no idea what was said prior to his edit. The comment he edited was in reply to what @ikaruss21 said after flow logged off the nite before.

The following is the edited comment he made at 8:11 & the last sentence of his comment is the reason given for his suspension ~

@ikaruss21 Yea, because I am insulting him when I tell him to shut up but when he tells me to shut up, it's just fine. Here it is: you are a ####### idiot. Did you enjoy that? Did that satisfy your rape fantasies? In fact, I am so disgusted by some of you people that I'm going to start a game. Let's see if I can be offensive enough to get banned. (29 Nov, 08:11)

Flow made the above comment at 8:11. It appears to me he got up from his computer ~ maybe he went outside, walked around the block, got some fresh air & then got back on his computer & started reading what he wrote the night before. It appears to me, flow realized he was out of line & was trying to make amends because he made this comment 37 minutes later ~

2 @Wade Sorry for the "don't be an idiot" part. Look, I really hope my impression is completely false. More than that, I realize that Jai went through very traumatic experiences which literally ###### up her mind. I do not think I would be that great if I had gone through that. We all have some kind of darkness within. If you see the good in her and are willing to take the risks in order to help her heal, that is perfectly understandable. We all also have our light within. (29 Nov, 08:48)flowsurfer

An hour and 5 min's after flow said I'm going to start a game" a moderator came on and said the following with no regard to the comment flow made at 8:48 ~

3 @flowsurfer, your comment: "I'm going to start a game. Let's see if I can be offensive enough to get banned" demonstrates you are now deliberating attempting to disrupt Inward Quest. Your account is now suspended. (29 Nov, 09:16

Maybe the moderator never noticed the apology @flow made 37 min's after he said "he was going to start a game" in a moment which appears to me, to be one of total frustration on flow's part. Perhaps flow was reading over all the comments he made the night before & planned on making more apologies; but was suspended before he could.

I've interacted with flow often since he joined last Christmas. Until the month or so prior to his acct being suspended; I've never known him to be anything other than calm, polite, respectful & very well mannered. I can't even recall him cursing prior to the last couple months. Never got angry. Very controlled ~ showed little or no emotion. He's been extremely depressed & suicidal as well as angry. I'm NOT making excuses or trying to justify his words. I'm sharing my point of view because I've interacted with him often.

Personally, I think flow was frustrated & blowing off steam when he made the comment which the moderator mistook as a threat. He was being a bit melodramatic because I think he was very frustrated & perhaps hurt by the comments made by other members. There was a major breakdown in communication between many members.

He made a comment to @Vesuvius which was out of line the nite before. Perhaps after he apologized to @Wade he was going to apologize to him also; but was suspended before he could. He could have been reading over the thread & looking for links to post supporting his claims in regards to sexual abuse of men. Perhaps he was going to apologize to @ikaruss21 too. He certainly wasn't doing anything to disrupt IQ.

I know if you look at the answer where the comments were made it looks bad; but remember the comments between DB, Jai, ursixx & flow were made the nite before. I'm not trying to excuse flow's behavior but I understand his frustration with DB, @ursixx & @Jai & I think if you read what I wrote you will understand also. If you wish ~ please see my comments on what I was thinking when I read what $B, ursixx , ikaruss21, & Jai said here .

I believe one of the main points flow was trying to make was ~ NOT everyone resides in N America, the UK or another civilized country. I think this is where much of his frustration was coming from.

Even though I knew the moderator may of made a mistake, I didn't speak up right away for 2 reasons. 1st, because I honestly thought he was leaving because he asked to have his acct suspended. He wrote the following & gave his points away. I thought he was killing time until the moderators took action on his request. I know he didn't go through proper protocol; but he prob thought what I did ~ the mods read the threads & would eventually see it. I noticed @The Best Science Joke guy didn't follow protocol when he asked for his acct to be suspended & luckily a moderator noticed his comment soon after he made it.

I'm going to paste what flow said ~

" I need to detach from this community, from this network. I have difficulty because it feels like a lifeline, sort of like I'm in the ocean and it's the only ship passing by that might hear my cry for help and I can't let go of it. I know intellectually that I will not find help here. I might find distraction or empathy but not the actual key that liberates me from whatever it is, internal or external, that is keeping me down. I know I can't seek that from family or anyone else either. I don't want to be involved in drama. I don't want to complain. It's just not worth my time. I want a life that I am proud to own. I don't know if that life is possible but I know I won't find it here. I am not sure how to cope but I need to focus on something else. I need to stop thinking that asking for help is my last option and find something deeper that will actually work. Maybe the key is subtle and hidden in plain sight. Maybe I haven't surrendered enough to Neville's approach. I don't know, I have to figure it out. If possible, I would like to have my account suspended or deleted/banned to avoid the temptation of coming back. I mean it, please do it. Thank you for trying your best to provide comfort and guidance to me. Maybe something you said will bounce around in my head enough to make a difference. link|award points|report this answer answered 26 Nov, 16:57

flowsurfer (suspended)

The 2nd reason was because I thought he needed a time out. Time to cool off & think about how he was acting & the words he was using. Take time to realize & appreciate IQ & all the members.

Then I saw this & realized he wanted to come back. He doesn't have any friends, or a job & lives in his moms basement. He said IQ was a lifeline for him.

I waited an additional amt of time before posting this question because of Jai. I knew if she continued to go after flow & he responded emotionally instead of thinking first, he would not get another chance & his suspension would be permanent. If you want to read more about this - see here . I realize it's a very long read - you can start reading where I wrote Not a curse word was uttered in bold print. Please read the next 4 short paragraphs which include a quote by Simon if you so desire.

I don't think @Catherine would mind if I posted what she wrote here. If you haven't read the answers on this question ~ maybe you should. It's a good read.

>@ele I thought it was a bit harsh that Flowsurfer was booted out without much warning but presumably he could appeal to Simon's kind heart - (20 Dec '13, 09:20) Catherine

(or the moderator on duty)

... and remember, flow joined on x-mas day. (sorry, pulling out all the stops)

I would also like to post a quote by Stingray to NB which I feel is applicable also especially if you combine it with what Simon said in regards to the profanity scanner & yes, you can find the complete quote here.

The moderators are always tolerant of anyone that is sincerely participating in the exchange but may drift into bad language, perhaps because of their emotional state due to stressful life circumstances they may currently be involved in. The profanity scanning should take care of this.

While in your prosperous situation, you are in vibrational reach of Just do it, there are many in strong emotional pain who are not, and sites like IQ give them breathing space (and hope) from their existing limiting beliefs (19 Sep '13, 09:49 Stingray

I honestly can't see how you can suspend flow for the reason given. If you follow his activity ~ the comments do NOT support the moderators decision. If it was my decision to make, I would suspend him by request & when he's ready to come back he could either open a new acct or come back under his old user name. I hope you agree ...

Thank you ...


To be clear ~ I am NOT condoning flow's rude comments or his choice of words. I was also on the receiving end of flow's harsh comments a month earlier. I stopped speaking because I didn't want him to get suspended. I knew he was very upset. Hindsight tells me I should have handled it different.

Had @flow been warned or banned for what he said to @Vesuvius or the first part of the comment he made to @ikaruss I would completely understand & be in agreement. I would NOT have taken the time to write up a post asking the mods to investigate further. That was NOT the REASON his account was suspended. I could have & prob should have stuck to just the facts ~ but ~ since I went to the trouble to do this ~ thought I'd add my personal 2 cents.

This answer is marked "community wiki".

answered 04 Jan '14, 00:35

ele's gravatar image


edited 04 Jan '14, 15:49

Please refrain from down voting this answer because you do NOT like me. Please feel free to fact check & share your opinion. I marked it wiki because I didn't answer the question & was looking at my answer as sort of a poll. If you do NOT want flow to come back, feel free to vote my answer down. If you are voting it down because you are a hater or looking for revenge ~ I feel only pity for you ... Actually, it's up to the moderators - not any of us..

(04 Jan '14, 19:18) ele
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Asked: 23 Nov '13, 12:37

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Last updated: 04 Jan '14, 19:20

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