Peace. my question is why have some people neglected essence/spirituality in religion upon which faith is built on and limit their focus on the exterior affairs in religion. Eventhough religion was meant to elevate spirituality as its the guideline that shapes and progresses our spirituality.

For instance,prayer,especially in Islam is meant to remind us and keep us consistent in worship and devotion to God. Zakat charity or alms giving was meant to enhance our spirituality by making us less attached to money/materialism, and teaches us to be considering and thoughtful to others and being less self centered. Fasting makes us mindful of God's blessings and teaches us gratitude , as well as gains us spiritual skills such as self control, resisting desire, striving, as well as patience and observance ( enabling us to gain self empowerment skills strengthening our spirituality).

Profound Hajj, which theme is simplicity, gives us the opportunity to appreciate and embrace universality and gives us a chance to take a break from worldly matters and emphasise on the hereafter and spirituality, as well as encounter and recognize diversity and value it, nhit also instills equality and humbleness as there is no distinguishments in Hajj. Even the dresscode for women to dress modestly and not apply excessive makeup is not to restrict her or oppress her, but sothat she doesnt shift people from seeking her because of her geniune character to running mainly after her [superficial] looks and features, so that she is valued properly.

Do you see the picture? Do you see how practice works to fulfil the purpose of spiritual growth? So why do some people seperate between religion and spirituality and vice versa, why do they regard religion as an obsticle in their way of spiritual growth. Have they not grasped that religion was meant to progress spirituality, why do they think they condtridict instead of compliment?

At the same time, practicing does not by any means imply being narrow minded, as a matter of fact a truth seeker should be sound in judgement , open minded and flexible-without comprimising values. P.S sorry for elongating, thanks for taking the time to read through.

i ask Allah the exalted to guide us, protect us and grant us His infinite Mercy.

asked 04 Jan '13, 03:02

springflower's gravatar image


edited 04 Jan '13, 04:11

Barry%20Allen's gravatar image

Barry Allen ♦♦

Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

(04 Jan '13, 21:57) white tiger

They said to Jesus, "Come, let us pray today and let us fast." Jesus said, "What is the sin that I have committed, or wherein have I been defeated? But when the bridegroom leaves the bridal chamber, then let them fast and pray."

(04 Jan '13, 21:58) white tiger

Jesus said, "He who will drink from my mouth will become like me. I myself shall become he, and the things that are hidden will be revealed to him."

(04 Jan '13, 21:59) white tiger
showing 1 of 3 show 2 more comments

Because they do??????!!

Religion is for those who want to continue rituals and the formality Spirituality is for those who want to reach the Spiritual Ascent without dogmas

Religion is for those who are asleep Spirituality is for those who are awake

Religion is for those that require guidance from others Spirituality is for those that lend ears to their inner voice

Religion has a dogmatic and unquestionable assembly of rules that need to be followed without question Spirituality invites you to reason it all, to question it all and to decide your actions and assume the consequences

Religion threatens and terrifies Spirituality gives you inner peace

Religion speaks of sin and of fault Spirituality encourages "living in the present" and not to feel remorse for which has already passed - Lift your spirit and learn from errors

Religion represses humanity, and returns us to a false paradigm Spirituality transcends it all and makes you true to yourself

Religion is instilled from childhood, like the soup you do not you want to take Spirituality is the food that you you seek, that satisfies you and is pleasant to the senses

Religion is not God Spirituality is infinite consciousness and all that is - It is God

Religion invents Spirituality discovers

Religion does not investigate and does not question Spirituality questions everything

Religion is based on humanity, an organization with rules Spirituality is DIVINE, WITHOUT rules

Religion is cause for division Spirituality is cause for union

Religion seeks you so that you create Spirituality causes you to seek

Religion continues the teachings of a sacred book Spirituality seeks the sacredness in all the books

Religion is fed fear Spirituality is fed confidence

Religion lives you in your thoughts Spirituality lives in your conscience

Religion is in charge of the "to do" Spirituality is in charge of the "to BE"

Religion is a dialectic Spirituality is logic

Religion feeds the ego Spirituality makes you transcend

Religion makes you renounce yourself to the world Spirituality makes you live with God, not to renounce him/her

Religion is adoration Spirituality is meditation

Religion is to continue adapting to the psychology of a template Spirituality is individuality.

Religion dreams of glory and paradise Spirituality makes you live it here and now

Religion lives in the past and in the future Spirituality lives in the present, in the here and now

Religion lives in the confinement of your memory Spirituality is LIBERTY in AWARENESS.

Religion believes in the eternal life Spirituality makes you conscious of all that is

Religion gives you promises for the after-life Spirituality gives you the light to find God in your inner self, in this life, in the present, in the here and the now…

May peace, happiness and universal love continue growing in your heart.


answered 04 Jan '13, 08:57

crosby's gravatar image


Excellent Jesus himself would agree with most of this! Know God personally. :-)

This is the true Christian way.

(04 Jan '13, 09:26) Wade Casaldi

Yes, there can be value in the essence of religions if you dig into them. But religion is not the only source of spiritual value. In fact there are many sources available today, if you are ready for them.

Personally i don't dig much into the essence of world religions anymore because

  • the written language of them is not vibrationaly matching todays language. So you have to translate them first into modern language. This takes time, many hours, years or sometimes even a lifetime (a little bit too long in my view to find something that makes you happy now :).
  • then you have to interpret many things that were written in those religious books. So it is easy for 10 people to read the same book and have 10 totally different opinions about the intepretation of many things in those books. Imo that's way too complicated for humans when you consider that everything,everything, everything we do in life for one reason only: being happy.

Imo the better question to ask would be:

Why does it bother you if some people neglects the spiritual essence in religion or not?

Why does it make you unhappy? Couldn't you just live your religion and let others believe what they want? That way you would be happy, which is your only motivation you want others to care about the spiritual essence in religions.


answered 04 Jan '13, 03:31

releaser99's gravatar image


i dont know why you make such assumptions. The message that God revealed is crystal clear. But i guess different things make different people happy. Some people refer to alternative methods seeking to find 'happiness' therein. Whats important for me is to be pleased in which i truly know is good for me, which pleases Allah the ultimate source of good, and wants nothing but good for us. By the way, true happiness is obtained in peace with God.

(04 Jan '13, 03:47) springflower

Hello springflower

Good question my friend ... in short i would say that some people think religion and spirituality contradict because each religion is based on a set of well defined beliefs, each religion revealing a true path ... this creates a kind of spiritual cleavage. Religion in this sense is a limited spirituality, for me spirituality is unlimited and includes all that is immaterial ... peace :)


answered 04 Jan '13, 04:23

blubird%20two's gravatar image

blubird two


@blubird two "Religion is a limited spirituality, spirituality is unlimited." That says it all.

(04 Jan '13, 04:27) releaser99

Nice answer :)

(04 Jan '13, 09:43) LapisLazuli

Because, religous people are giving away their power to something they don't know exists and are being controlled by religous organisations. True spiritual people keep their own power and are one with the universal energies and not controlled by anyone.


answered 04 Jan '13, 04:38

Wazza's gravatar image


I can't believe what I am reading, all religious writings were written 100s of years after the events, that is like you writing about your great great great great grand father, you wouldn't have a clue what he did. Why are you relying on a fable when you have your own immediate connection with the universe, you don't need o do it through something that is false. All writings were altered to create control.

(05 Jan '13, 01:59) Wazza

Do you see the picture? Do you see how practice works to fulfil the purpose of spiritual growth?

Yes, I do!

So why do some people seperate between religion and spirituality and vice versa, why do they regard religion as an obsticle in their way of spiritual growth. Have they not grasped that religion was meant to progress spirituality, why do they think they condtridict instead of compliment?

I grew up an agnostic, and one of the things that kept me away from religion, or spirituality of any kind, was the failure to observe the religious people that I knew practicing what they preached. People would go to church or temple on the weekend, and then act like jerks and do amoral things during the week.

Thus, for many years I was highly skeptical and disdainful of religion.

It was only after coming around to spirituality in my twenties that I began to appreciate what some of the old religions had to offer.

I could list plenty of other reasons why people are now mistrustful of religion (its use and abuse throughout history in wars, oppression, etc..), but I'm sure you know all those examples already. And of course none of that proves that religion is "bad", or has nothing to offer (and I believe the contrary), it simply answers your question as to why people are now making the separation.

And unfortunately, I must say, that even in my search for valuable religions today, I have been to a number of services, which have been, quite frankly, underwhelming. Every time I experience one of these, it kind of makes me think, "Ah ha, no wonder young people are becoming less religious when their parents are dragging them to these uninspired services!" I find a lot of religious officiants are just kind of going through the motions now.

That said, I have found some good ones here and there...they just seem to be hidden gems, "diamonds in the rough", if you will.

I think the central issue is that the direct mystical experience, which was originally the basis for all of the great religions, has been largely lost, and most "religious" people seem to be just going through the motions. If this is all people need, then good for them.

For better or for worse, I could never just "make myself believe" in a higher power, or the reality of the spirit, simply because a priest, reverend, rabbi, imam, or religious friend told me so. I needed to see/hear/feel some evidence through direct experience, and this I found was what the mystical traditions offered...such as Zen, Vedanta, Classical Yoga, Sufism, Kabbalah, etc.

I think the bottom line is that people will pursue a path or tradition that they get the most out of.

And, for the reasons stated above, and probably many more, fewer people today are being fulfilled spiritually through the major, standard religions.

This change could be do to a general shift (people are becoming more curious and savvy, and so they are pursuing a more direct spiritual experience), or perhaps the old religious organizations are atrophying, becoming stale--as happens to most large-scale organizations.

By way of comparison, check out an American Protestant sermon from the late 18th Century. Many of them were profound spiritual treatises exploring the very meaning of life and existence. Now walk into a few Protestant churches today and listen to their sermons. It's mostly fluffy uninspired nonsense, Reverends just going through the motions, reading a random passage from a book, and telling people what they want to hear.

Where are the Meister Eckharts, the St. Francises, the Ibn Arabis of today?

If they exist, I don't see them in the major religious organizations, with any sort of high-profile...and I've looked pretty hard. :)

I personally know one great Zen master who is of the ancient mold, but he is living humbly in utter obscurity in the mountains of New England, completely unknown to most of the world. Even mainstream Zen has become ossified and corporatized, much like the Catholic Church.

Hope that sheds some light on your question...from an extremely subjective point of view. :)


answered 04 Jan '13, 12:59

lozenge123's gravatar image


This is too bad that is the way most Christian churches have become. I wish you could hear my pastor. He talks about our power and authority through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit within us. He talks about us being Christ like, he teaches to empower and awaken. We play more contemporary praise music as we sing to God, I play my guitar. Although I will admit when I used to play what I was inspired to play, there were a lot more youth there then. Janice just wants chords, that is what she gets.

(04 Jan '13, 14:06) Wade Casaldi

If anyone wants to hear a good speaker, then listen to Bill Donahue. If he lived in my area I would make a point of listening to him. He's hilarious and interprets the scriptures as they were MEANT to be.

(04 Jan '13, 16:35) crosby

i have given you what was lost now seek and you will find,experience and enjoy.

(05 Jan '13, 21:58) white tiger
showing 1 of 3 show 2 more comments

There are even churches that are against religion. This is not blasphemous, but as Jesus taught us to be. He himself broke religion, this was his mission, to show everyone that they too can know God on a very personal level, that he is not someplace out there judging us and we must sacrifice and please him. He is right here with me, and cares about me, even little things, as a Father and Best Friend.

This in no way diminishes God but actually reveals God's love for us.

Religion is the practice of ritual, regulations, standards and rules. It makes knowing God very difficult. Jesus taught us to know God personally, have a direct and personal relationship with God as our father and friend. This is far more important than how we dress for church or how many candles we light or if we don't light any candles at all.

Jesus broke it out down to two commandments. Love God with all your heart as he loves you and love your neighbor as yourself.

The rest is just learning to be Christ like.

I imagine for you it would be Mohamad like.

Here are some examples of Religion vs Spirituality, these are Jesus own examples from the Bible actually.

Religion don't eat pork, don't eat meat on Fridays.

Jesus what comes out of the mouth is far more important than what goes in the mouth.

Religion you must have an intercessor to go for you and talk to God for you, you are not pure enough to talk to God talk to a Priest or Rabbi

Jesus do you not know that the Kingdom of God is within you?

There are many examples in the Bible as a matter of fact that is one reason why the Rabbis were against Jesus because he stepped all over there traditional rituals, rules and regulations always.


answered 04 Jan '13, 08:44

Wade%20Casaldi's gravatar image

Wade Casaldi

edited 05 Jan '13, 08:39

Maybe because some rituals in christianity dont exactly contribute in spiritual growth, please dont miss understand me but how can lighting candles promote spiritual growth? However when i addressed deeds such as alms giving and fasting which iam sure jesus, peace be upon him, himself used to practice we can see the affect they have in spiritual progress.

(04 Jan '13, 08:58) springflower

i also wanted to add, regulations in religion were also meant to help us abstain from anything that would hold us back and deviate us from our spiritual progress. When God commands us not to drink alcohol, not to backbite, not to think badly of others etc these are very essential for our spirituality. Its like a doctors prescription because God knows the impact they have on us.

(04 Jan '13, 09:05) springflower

Religion says do this to please God, it is it is ritual giving and fasting. But now here is the departure, when we love our neighbor as ourselves of course we will give alms not because we are suppose to and told to but because they need it. We may fast for God out of our love if we feel that is from our love and not just because we have to or are told to.

Religion tells us we have to, Spirituality says we don't have to but if we truly love we do not because we have to but we want to.

(04 Jan '13, 09:13) Wade Casaldi

What Spirituality says is Love God and Love God's children. From there we will have a giving heart, we will want to make God happy, not because we have to but because we want to.

(04 Jan '13, 09:18) Wade Casaldi

about ritual they missed some understanding of what it is about, example baptism they put water on the head of the person. but the real living water is in the person head.but because of the heart of stone and the ego very fee person find that out. jesus said you need to be born of water and the spirit to go above in the kingdom of God. where God is the light that established him self. yet they worship the dead of is body has the erasing of all sin on earth.the flesh is flesh but the spirit-

(04 Jan '13, 09:30) white tiger

is spirit. is light(spirit) took flesh in this world to interact and help people that would drink the living water of is mouth. yet out of ego(darkness) they wanted to kill him and destroy is flesh. the light came in the world but darkness as not understand it. and darkness will die in sin.

(04 Jan '13, 09:36) white tiger

(( whoever does a good deed, they are paving for themselves)) (( who ever does a good deed they are only doing it to themselves )) (( whoever does a good deed, be it make or female, We shall certainly grant a happy and wholesome life))

(04 Jan '13, 10:00) springflower

you said religion requires a priest or rabbi to intercede for you and mediate between you and God, Not in Islam, Islam makes you deal with God directly, just like you said as a supporter, friend, with love and devotion. Seeking God, and loving to live connected to God.

(04 Jan '13, 10:21) springflower

Think on this as a parent, would I want my children being obedient and loving to me because they have to? Would I rather they be obedient and loving to me because they really feel it, it is genuine love and obedience from love and respect not because it is required to please me but because they really do love me?

How does Our Father feel about us? Is he more happy to get a ritual of respect or a great big hug of appreciation? It is the love of God the counts, even your Rumi talks of that. ;-)

(04 Jan '13, 10:23) Wade Casaldi

The prophet Muhammad was asked, was is Ihsan(goodness) , he said it is to worship Allah as if you are seeing Him, and if you cannot see Him then surely He sees you. In the Glorious Quran, Allah adresses ' O you who believed' and not ' O muslims'. He is the Lord of the universe and everyyhifng thats in it, omnipresent, full knowledge and wisdom, the great. When you live these meanings you are a believer in God

(04 Jan '13, 11:05) springflower

I tried to give you a point but it said -1 so I took that back. I will say however Amen to that about believers. :-)

(04 Jan '13, 11:45) Wade Casaldi

@Wade Casaldi

Poppycock! (pure enough)

You do NOT need a rabbi or a priest to talk or pray to God. First & foremost a rabbi is a teacher (scholar) & a rabbi isn't even required to conduct a religious service or does he have any special authority to do so.

A priest never stands between you & a conversation with God & his authority is to perform certain sacred rituals.

(04 Jan '13, 22:01) ele

@Wade Casaldi

Whenever you or Jai have asked for prayers (even when I was not actively participating like 4th of July); for me, it starts with the lighting of a candle. I'm sorry neither you or your church understands the symbolism & significance of this very spiritual and/or sacred practice whether one is affiliated with a religion or not.

point thingy - happens to me too & if I click it again - it works.

(04 Jan '13, 22:04) ele

The rules guide those that don't fully know and love God. Church is like a hospital, it is not for prefect sinless people it is for those that need help.

(04 Jan '13, 23:19) Wade Casaldi

We do not tell anyone to change his ways, just come to church get to know God. The more someone does and really gets to love and respect God and all others including himself the more he changes automatically. My one friend was a heavy drinker I got him coming to church. No one said stop drinking to him they told him he is loved by God as he is. After a while he said, I think I will start reading my Bible more. Next thing I know he quit drinking, he said, "I know God didn't like it so I quit."

(04 Jan '13, 23:23) Wade Casaldi

The more we know God personally the more we change for the better. We don't need to be told to do this or not do that we know it deep on our hearts what is right and wrong. The Holy Spirit shines a bright light on it from within, "You need to change this."

(04 Jan '13, 23:25) Wade Casaldi

@ele I need to remind you of the money changers. The people brought Roman money to buy their animal to sacrifice to God for their sins. But "The Roman money was unclean and so had to be changed for the church money that was blessed to buy their sacrifice." Never mind that Roman money was in the eyes of the church worth less than the church money. Also only animals bought from the church were worthy of sacrifice. If you couldn't afford it that was your problem.

(04 Jan '13, 23:50) Wade Casaldi

No one could talk to God directly only the high priest could enter "The Holy of Hollies place to talk with the Arc of God." This was before Jesus changed things.

(04 Jan '13, 23:50) Wade Casaldi

@ele You light a candle with intent, it is not just a ritual. Where it is just the thing you are suppose to do it losses its meaning. I see this with the Catholic churches it is so full of ritual that it makes you feel very distant from God. The priest is doing this that and the other thing even speaking Latin at times. You have to go to a priest to confesses your sins there. Then the priest prays for you or you have to pray to a saint because you are not worthy to pray to God directly.

(05 Jan '13, 00:15) Wade Casaldi

For done reason Catholicism has a lot of ritual and rules that Jesus didn't.

(05 Jan '13, 00:20) Wade Casaldi

candle,chanukah,hannukah,menorah more ritual describing the light that you are made in the image of the father. awake o sleeper. so let there be light,Be the light that you can be , experience and enjoy.

(05 Jan '13, 06:42) white tiger
showing 2 of 21 show 19 more comments

religion is good when in truth. when it is not in truth but based on judgement or to satisfy someone ego, it is not spiritual anny more. the flesh is flesh and the spirit is spirit. that is why some people do not accept religion.because when religion is not in truth and becomes a judgement of undiscerned people seeking only the flesh or to praise them self and blame other a division is make,that is where the contradiction comes in. they make people suffer around them. verily verily i tell you many have entertain angel unaware. if they would have lifted the son of men that they are to go above they would have seen and know that he was telling the truth.


answered 04 Jan '13, 04:47

white%20tiger's gravatar image

white tiger

edited 04 Jan '13, 09:49


Thank you white tiger, you've got a point there. This is true intentions are most important fact in acceptance of good deeds. (( the day where no wealth or offspring will bring benefit, except who comes to Allah with a healthy heart))

(04 Jan '13, 07:52) springflower

Its really all about your prespective, some would view practice in its exterior only, while others will experience its essence because their prespective is profound. They have insight, and dont just do, this is a quality of honestly. Sometimes when we approach religion wrong, we can make it unappealing, and so constricted. May Allah grant us aMer y and forgiveness

(04 Jan '13, 11:30) springflower

why do you wash the outside of the cup? you should wash the inside. you use water on the outside but you do not use water in the inside. use your water on the inside and make the water and the light become one in truth. then you will have life giving water to everlasting life.

(04 Jan '13, 22:41) white tiger
showing 2 of 3 show 1 more comments

The prophet muhammad , peace be upon him, said if we were to never sin, Allah would have wiped us and came with people who sin but sincerely repent. This clearly demonstares that we are not meant to be sin-free like the angels, but learn from our mistakes. Through submission voluntarly to God , which is what Islam is, we liberate ourselves from earthly/materialistic attachments/desires and learn to gain empowerment over our selves, not in a supressive way because as i said Islam is your voluntary submission, you want to do this, you are fully convinced its good for you and you love and enjoy it, (( there is no compulsion in religion)). (( goodness is not merely facing the east and west in prayer, but true goodness and piety is (the state of) who believes in Allah, the last day, the angels, and the prophets. And gives from his wealth out of love to the kinship, the orphans, and poor, , and performs prayer and gives alms, and those who are truthful to their promises when theh make a promise, and those who are patient and enduring in times of hardship and turmoil, verily tjose are the ones who are truthful, and those are indeed whom are righteous))


answered 04 Jan '13, 10:25

springflower's gravatar image


edited 04 Jan '13, 10:36

the truth will set you free. when there is no more division in you the water and the light will become one. then you will have living water,to everlasting life. Jesus said, "The images are manifest to man, but the light in them remains concealed in the image of the light of the father. He will become manifest, but his image will remain concealed by his light."

(04 Jan '13, 10:52) white tiger

Jesus said, "When you see your likeness, you rejoice. But when you see your images which came into being before you, and which neither die not become manifest, how much you will have to bear! Jesus said, "He who will drink from my mouth will become like me. I myself shall become he, and the things that are hidden will be revealed to him." "Two will rest on a bed: the one will die, and the other will live."

(04 Jan '13, 10:56) white tiger

The prophet muhammad peace be upon him said, God is concealed by His light. Much in common because they are all coming from the same source

(04 Jan '13, 11:01) springflower

Has anyone implored the 99 names of God?

(04 Jan '13, 11:06) springflower

@springflower We may not agree on Salvation, Jesus death and resurrection, but there is much we do agree on. Open conversation is good and even revealing to ourselves a greater understanding of our own faiths as we try to explain our own. I have Muslim friends we used to spend hours deep in conversations comparing our faiths. :-)

(04 Jan '13, 11:09) Wade Casaldi

The Most Compassionate, Most Merciful, the First,the Last, the Hidden, The Manifest, the Light, the Guide, The Loving, the Forbearing, The Just, the Trustee, The patient, the all forgiving, the Exalted, the Magnificent, the Grateful, the protecting friend, the One, the Unique. These are some of the 99 names of God.

(04 Jan '13, 11:21) springflower

@springflower-"a rose by any other name would smell as sweet" :)

(04 Jan '13, 14:40) blubird two

"Sin" is a concept invented by religion. Ancient knowledge from the likes of Hermes understood the 4 great cycles/ages of "human" evolution, which involves the involution of the Spirit/Soul. These 4 ages are known as the Golden, Silver, Copper and Iron. In the Iron Age (which is where we're at), Spirit is in an extremely dense barbaric state. That's why there's so much "sin" as some people call it. We are about done with this Iron Age and now begins the evolution of matter back to Spirit.

(04 Jan '13, 16:23) crosby

Ancient knowledge:

Spirit = THE ALL; the Infinite Living Mind. Spirit is the invisible, moveable, ever active positive principle in motion.

Matter = is solidified spirit. It is the passive of negative principle.

Involution = The descent of spirit into matter; the transmutation of spirit into matter.

Evolution = Matter’s ascent/return to Spirit; the transmutation of matter back into spirit.

(04 Jan '13, 16:30) crosby

@springflower God is truth from the beguinning to the end eternal. those with living water that cross the last door with out fear with a pure heart will see God in is kingdom.and they will not need the light of a candle or the light of the moon or sun. because there God is the light of the kingdom.and all is children are made in is children are also ligth and they all communicate at the speed of light. using the golden light.the grace of God. i have talked here about heavenly things.

(04 Jan '13, 22:52) white tiger

Here's another thing in common The Prophet Muhammad related that Allah the exalted said: I have prepared for my righteous servants that which no eye has seen, no ear has heard and never came across the mind of anyone

(12 Jan '13, 09:17) springflower
showing 2 of 11 show 9 more comments

that which is codified by human beings
is just that, limited by human intellect
yet some say it is the word of God

since Infinite Mind does not speak
we have a conundrum, where religion
dogmatizes and restricts, spirituality

develops self consciousness and man gods


answered 04 Jan '13, 20:39

fred's gravatar image


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