This question is marked "community wiki".

It is impossible for a man to mount two horses or to stretch two bows. And it is impossible for a servant to serve two masters; otherwise, he will honor the one and treat the other contemptuously. No man drinks old wine and immediately desires to drink new wine. And new wine is not put into old wineskins, lest they burst; nor is old wine put into a new wineskin, lest it spoil it. An old patch is not sewn onto a new garment, because a tear would result.

how many time being in this world did I see people that have stopped their understanding, and think they know all, when in fact they are afraid of the new wine thinking that they will burst they prefer to burst in anger against other thinking that they did not understand something. they see speck of saw dust in other people eyes and do not see the beam in their own eye. the same is true with the new wine skin that does not want to be spoil by the old wine and do not want to drink from the old wine skin. you see even if you understand booth side, they are responsible of their own choice be merciful, love them as they are even if they persecute you because they do not know what they are doing.

yet it would be good if they would grow in their understanding and be in harmony with each other at peace with a pure heart.

maybe a day will come when they properly lift that stone, and split that piece of wood. then they will find me there. if you find the answer for your self it is good because it as to start from within.

many are drunk for the time being. when they shake off their wine then they will repent.

I am not a divider am i?

asked 03 Dec '13, 23:26

white%20tiger's gravatar image

white tiger

edited 04 Dec '13, 15:06


What is your question?

(04 Dec '13, 01:10) Vesuvius

@Vesuvius it is at the top at the beginning: how to solve the issue of the old wine and the new wine? did you get lost somewhere?

(04 Dec '13, 01:21) white tiger

is your question about old knowledge and truths versus new evolving truths?? and the integration between them?

(04 Dec '13, 14:47) abrahamloa

@abrahamloa you are catching on pretty good. who is the old wine skin? is it not someone old in the flesh that contain old wine? and who is the new wine skin? is it not someone who is new in the flesh and contain new wine? for the moment they are intoxicated when they shake off their wine they will drink some water. and of course I am not talking about physical water.

(04 Dec '13, 15:04) white tiger

sorry i still don't get what actual real comparison you are doing with the old skin wine and new wine..

(04 Dec '13, 21:22) abrahamloa

seek and you shall find. all is there to see. even if you do not yet know how it relate inside you can know how it relate outside. so it is not hard to find. you can even look at this video a man in bondage and a harsh man refusing him water. and one that gives water. those who drink this water will be thirsty again(physical water), if you drink the water from my mouth you will never thirst again. do you think it is talking about physical water? it is strange that in 2000 year no one see this.

(04 Dec '13, 21:57) white tiger what is the water that comes out of my mouth? what is the water that is in you? seek and you shall find. eventually you shall find the water and find your self. and the 2 will become 1. verily verily I say to you no one can enter the kingdom of God with out being born of water and the spirit.

(04 Dec '13, 22:29) white tiger

the issue of the old wine and the new wine is all about fear of change ... here're a few tips on how to overcome fear

(02 Jan '14, 03:27) jaz

@Jaz is it about fear of change? or is it about fear that they are in error and that they cannot praise them self? then they want to remain in ignorance. what is it that they do not want to see? is it their own error and inequity? is that not why they claim that they can see?

(02 Jan '14, 05:00) white tiger

he would say it is about reincarnation and that the revisiting soul as a new born does not enter the old body it had before, but a new one

(03 Jan '14, 15:59) fred
showing 1 of 10 show 9 more comments

Well theres no issue with me. The old wines the old wine, and the new wines the new wine.

Keep them separate at all times. Serve metaphorically one master, the newer master!

If you served the old one for a while then fine, but when the new ones revealed leave the old stuff separate, and most importantly behind you. Don't go back to it like a dog returning to its own vomit ( I wrote that bit a few thousand years ago ) leave the vomit where it is.

When you've tasted the new wine the old will never be the same to you again. So stick with the new.....job done.


answered 04 Dec '13, 10:00

Monty%20Riviera's gravatar image

Monty Riviera

This question reminds me of wrinkles & condoms...

(30 Dec '13, 22:24) ele

I would be fascinated to know why! Have a great new year ele, I was just thinking about our old friend Flowey yesterday. Hope things turn out ok for him. Hes such a talented guy....and yet so troubled. Hope your well, im not on here as much these days....its just gone a bit flat really. I think just about everything that can be asked has been. For me anyway. Its become a bit of a meta facebook for some....maybe that's no bad thing.

(31 Dec '13, 09:16) Monty Riviera

Thank you @Monty ~ very sweet of you. I wish you & yours the best yr yet. A yr of good health, success & an abundance of happiness & love.. "flat" I honestly thought you & Saskia were on an exotic x-mas holiday. I get what you mean tho ~ been feeling it for awhile. flow ~ I don't want to see him come back before he's ready cause I doubt if he'll get another chance if he overreacts again. Another member who is hurt, angry or took his comments personally & cannot forget may intentionally

(03 Jan '14, 01:32) ele

bait him or go off on him & he may not react in a calm manner. Then he would be suspended for good. I'm not making excuses for him; but its hard not to feel for him. He said he had no friends & IQ was his lifeline. It appears flow liked the pet name you gave him Monty & wants to come back. My heart broke when I saw this ~ but I don't think the time is right yet.

(03 Jan '14, 01:34) ele

@ele If you are in touch with Flowsurfer, you could encourage him to approach Simon directly. I certainly wouldn't object to him coming back - crikey, if we can't get over our differences here then it doesn't say much! It might work better than entering via the back door - it is just good manners really. I do admire FS's lack of guile though ... I mean he could have signed on with a wildly different name!

(03 Jan '14, 04:06) Catherine

@Catherine I've not been in contact with flow. He may not understand the rules in regards to suspensions & considering what I've seen him post ~ it seems likely he didn't even know about Meta when he was still here. Some forums will ban you for breaking rules; but then you may open a new acct w/a new user name if you like. I think he needs a bit more time & he can still read IQ & prob get more benefit by doing so than by interacting. Of course it may not have been flow - just guessing.

(03 Jan '14, 04:17) ele

@ele You're right - he can still view stuff on IQ. It is easy to forget that sometimes. Let's hope 2014 is a better year for him.

(03 Jan '14, 04:27) Catherine

@Catherine You're right too. I had an answer to the rape question with lots of links & a question for Meta written up after you & I spoke & I lost both of them before I could post due to a connection issue. Then I thought maybe its a sign I should wait. I'll post a question tonight on Meta. Thanks..

(03 Jan '14, 04:39) ele

Hi ele, I do hope Flowey does make it back. I hope also he buries the height thing for good and realises hes been a giant all along!

(05 Jan '14, 11:00) Monty Riviera

hmm .. Don't you subscribe to your own ?'s @Monty - or if like me, you don't always read your IQ email? I don't think his issues had anything to do with growing 8" in height. If you can figure out wrinkles & condoms ~ this should be a piece of cake. Had he been in my RL ~ it would have been one of the 1st ?'s I would have asked him had he said those same things to me if you exclude the height issue. Give it some thought. You're right ~ flow is a giant; but he doesn't realize it yet

(06 Jan '14, 05:52) ele

I'll be honest ele, I didn't know I had IQ email! Im very very slow when it comes to anything computerish. I will look into this and try and emulate my success with the condom and wrinkle conundrum. Im quite a bit mentally slower than most ele. I had a good education... just spent far too much of it down at Sammy Bairds Bar :)

(06 Jan '14, 10:43) Monty Riviera

@Monty lol You're soo funny. I thought maybe you were irked cause of all the spam that went to your acct after I posted & another user followed. Would you like IQ email? If so I'll tell you how. I miss the notifications. I was online about the time you posted Sunday; but saw DB was the last user to post on this ?, so I didn't bother checking it out. Glad I did before I went to bed or would have missed it. You know I'll google that bar don't you? We just say CRS in the US or I could (A)

(06 Jan '14, 21:05) ele

(B) blame it on my youth or a TBI. I'll stick with CRS & since the acronym made it passed the scanner - they must know the "s" stands for stuff. Glad that pesky scanner got its mind out of the gutter & urban dictionary. It was DB's ? on helping flow. I posted under your answer & possibly another place too. Have to think on it...BTW ~ haven't heard from ursixx or anyone else who may be reading along. You'r pretty good at figuring stuff out - lots of RL experience & a few street smarts too.

(06 Jan '14, 21:13) ele
showing 2 of 13 show 11 more comments

This is 2013 , so wine skins are more of a novelty. I see it more important to find the wine/wines you like albeit old or new, bottle or box. And don't be afraid to try different sorts either! Metaphorically speaking.


answered 05 Dec '13, 02:12

ursixx's gravatar image


Metaphorically speaking this question reminds me of wrinkles & condoms & if anyone is going to understand it will be you bro or perhaps @Monty.

(30 Dec '13, 22:24) ele

Im still trying to figure it out ele :) a bit slow today, perhaps during tonites celebrations and with the aid of some "Old Golden Hen", the answer will come to me .

(31 Dec '13, 09:55) Monty Riviera

lol Want another hint? or would you like another Old Golden Hen? Think protection @Monty Perhaps its not as popular in the UK as it was here. May want to raise your thoughts a bit higher cause I checked around IQ & I see the first half was posted here in 2012 ... (psst ... by none other than @ursixx ~ but I think he does not recall)

(03 Jan '14, 02:04) ele

ah the joy of CRS @ele

(03 Jan '14, 03:24) ursixx

Ahh I get it now ele. Im a bit slow I know :)

(05 Jan '14, 11:02) Monty Riviera

lol @Monty It was my thoughts leading up to that revelation which are funny... I won't muck up wt's nice thread ~ I'll find a more appropriate question to post the links & leave the rest up to the imagination.

(06 Jan '14, 05:38) ele
showing 2 of 6 show 4 more comments

Yes you're divider @White tiger hahahoho late merry xmas lol =)... at least seemingly so and perhaps truthfully so to many. I suppose you know well the new will become old. And that the new is still within the old and the old is already within the new...

And it makes no sense to divide a circle, does it. Because there's no reasonable way to divide it, no point to start from or end at. So are you really asking how to make a circle stop being circle ? ;o.. Intriguing question, sure can occupy one's mind for life time.

I guess I like the parable of wine more, it's easier to answer - I'd drink them both. The old for being old, the new for being new, yet both for being and becoming each other.

This answer is marked "community wiki".

answered 31 Dec '13, 04:10

CalonLan's gravatar image


@calonlan are you so sure that they become each other? or that the new become the old? if one thing change from a state to another then is it the same thing? or is it different? I suppose that you have seen some new that do not want to be old and some old that do not accept the new in this world. are they not making that division if they cannot accept the counterpart and move from their toxicity shake of their wine and drink water? are you so sure that I am a divider?to divide a circle is very-

(31 Dec '13, 06:48) white tiger

easy i am very surprise that you do not know this. how many birthday cake have you eat so far? or pizza? when they will truly be able of shaking their wine and becoming each other they will drink water. when some are so intoxicated that you serve them water and they think it is wine. do not be surprise that it may take a while for them to figure out that it was water.

(31 Dec '13, 06:54) white tiger

if you believe that turning water in to wine is a miracle I tell you turning wine in to water would be a greater miracle. and I am not talking about the physical drink.

(31 Dec '13, 07:25) white tiger

after you drink the wine and it passes through your kidneys. It is all the same. Old or new...

(01 Jan '14, 03:34) ursixx

@white tiger, yes I know people resist it. But my end has been engraved within me since my birth. All of my life is just an unwinding consequence of being born.

Circle was a figure speech. If new becomes old and old is renewing, you can't divide it, and say "this is new" and "that is old",..because new-to-old is relationship that conditions itself. You need the new to define old and vice verse.

Someone 6 years old is young in relation to a 30yo old. But 30yo is young in relation to 60 yo old.

(02 Jan '14, 03:19) CalonLan

There is no end to it. Because old and new, as any other duality, exist only in relation to something. Take that relation away, and old will become one with the new and there lies the understanding that they were never apart in the first place. It was only our perception (creation of definitions of things and relationships of them to each other) that has created the division.

(02 Jan '14, 03:21) CalonLan

@Ursixx are you so sure that it is the same? it is all urine yet not all the same. do you know why they take urine sample at hospital? because it contain knowledge about you on what you take, food, drink, pills, pregnancy etc.... so it might look the same but it is not.

(02 Jan '14, 03:54) white tiger

@Calonlan I am not dividing anything. can you say that a mirror, or the water divide something when it show you a image? the one that cast stuff on the mirror or the water is the one that does not want to see it and create the division. That observer is the one not able to drink water.

(02 Jan '14, 04:03) white tiger

@Calonlan also I did not ask you to make a circle stop being a circle you did. is the circle not all ready broken if one side cannot accept the other? is it not already in division?

(02 Jan '14, 05:31) white tiger

@white tiger, when I said you're divider...I was only teasing you, you're one of few people who try to collapse duality. Just to set the record straight.

(02 Jan '14, 06:50) CalonLan

@ursixx Not only did you steal my science joke which I would have posted had the ? not been closed ~ you have the A to WT's last ? as well. How do turn wine in to water he asked. The polite term for urine is water. Urine is referred to as water in some religious texts & there are references to specific passages in the bible ~ e.g. drinking from ones own cistern & rivers of living water from the belly. I'll have to look it up but if I recall correctly, it's the spiel behind urine therapy

(03 Jan '14, 03:21) ele


(03 Jan '14, 06:43) CalonLan

au contraire dear @Cal evidently some people believe drinking urine is a very spiritual & healing practice if not a cure all.

(03 Jan '14, 16:18) ele

Since urine is the byproduct of blood it contains life blood & has magical healing, spiritual curative qualities. Scroll down to the last part of this link for a biblical explanation & if you don't understand, perhaps WT knows more about this practice. The only thing I know for sure is how when one drinks wine it turns into "water"... (Not my drink of choice)

(03 Jan '14, 16:20) ele

lol! like I have nothing better to do than read about urine therapy. Did make me laugh ~ break is over. Here's another fun & very very informative link ~ the Tao & urine therapy.

(03 Jan '14, 16:38) ele

@calonlan @ ele horse urine is used for making some pills also some doctor say to patient to urine in your hand for allergic burn it is used for some skin burn it seams so it can probably be use as cream. well urine is filtered liquid coming from a living organism yet it still contain some stuff that the person as take in. also for skin burn you can use water even the stuff called second skin for burn is made from 90% water.

(08 Jan '14, 08:36) white tiger

in 1871 that urine samples contaminated with mould did not allow the growth of bacteria. He also described the antibacterial action on human tissue of what he called Penicillium glaucum.

(08 Jan '14, 08:45) white tiger

Thanks for the links @white tiger Did you know they soaked the goat skin in urine to remove the hair? As the hairs loosened, the tanners scraped it off. Once the hair was removed, the tanners would bate the material by pounding dung into the skin or soaking the skin in a solution of animal brains. Among the kinds of dung commonly used were that of dogs or pigeons. Also common were "piss-pots" located on street corners, where human urine could be collected for use in tanneries. I'm not sure; >

(09 Jan '14, 02:16) ele

< but I wonder if the wine skins had to be lined with goat or sheep bladders to make them waterproof. If you wish to know more you can start with this link

(09 Jan '14, 02:18) ele
showing 2 of 19 show 17 more comments

If new wine is a replacement to an old wine, then let it be, otherwise, there must be continuation in between both, where both can be used relevantly.

Practically: try to experience for both and see the result if one is complement to another one, otherwise, if one forces the other then it could be resolved by replacing one with another or use it relevantly.

How to solve the issue of the old wine and the new wine? Simply put, it's by trying to see for how far both are complement each other or one must be replaced.


answered 04 Dec '13, 01:32

Seremonia's gravatar image


my method is to drink the old wine first to taste and know and appreciate it and know and taste and appreciate the new wine after. this way I know both and the difference between both of them. both the old wine skin is afraid to burst and cannot take in the new wine. and the new wine skin is afraid to be spoil by the old wine. when they shake of their wine ,they can drink some water.

(04 Dec '13, 06:18) white tiger

I know a little bit about wines & I know most wines don't age well & are intended to be consumed as soon as they leave the winery. All wines undergo changes. Whether they deteriorate or get better in time depends mainly on the storage conditions. The grape juice fermented in the animal skins & turned into wine. This was the Middle East & it's pretty hot there most of the yr. Wine wouldn't age well in those conditions. I wouldn't recommend drinkin' any old wine bottled in animal skins.

(03 Jan '14, 03:13) ele

The way you solve the issue of the old wine and the new wine is that you don't put new wine into old wineskins, and you don't put old wine into new wineskins.

Jesus was using a metaphor to advocate complete spiritual reform. He was stating that you have to accept the Lord's teachings in full, and not try to carry forward any past religious history or teachings, especially those of the corrupt religious officials of the day.


answered 04 Dec '13, 12:32

Vesuvius's gravatar image


edited 04 Dec '13, 12:32

@Vesuvius pretty good answer . but I think it goes a lot deeper then this. as long as they are intoxicated by their own wine they are divided and cannot drink water.

(04 Dec '13, 15:09) white tiger

Nope. You're reading too much into it.

(04 Dec '13, 15:27) Vesuvius

Interesting comment White Tiger. Could you in a simple way explain what it means, please feel free to talk about the inside of the cup if you want...but let us know what that actually means. Where did the water come into this, and whats the intoxication? And whats the divide?

(04 Dec '13, 15:52) Monty Riviera

the simple fact is that they are divided from each other old and new they cannot understand the other side because they are stuck in their own position they limit their understanding of the truth. so until they shake off there wine they are intoxicated. they do not use understanding, reasoning, truth, harmony, unity. they cast stone , mud and ignore paint at the water so they cannot drink water. some might not see the relevance, go in front of a water pond that is calm where you can see your-

(04 Dec '13, 19:37) white tiger

reflection look at your self in the water and cast stone, do you see your self properly? or does your vision is impaired like when you are drunk? even if someone would accept what they say they cannot accept the other side and will not see or hear. then how can they understand each other and be at peace with each other? Jesus also talked about this. if you have drink from my water and I have helped your understanding so be it and let it be. @Monty Riviera you have ask and it was given.

(04 Dec '13, 19:43) white tiger

Thanks for trying to clear that up white tiger.Im still not quiet sure what you meant but you've done your best to explain. And that's good. I did actually understand on of Freds poems the other day, perhaps soon the penny will drop with some of your statements.

(05 Dec '13, 09:55) Monty Riviera

@Mounty Riviera we could take Vesuvius for example: each time I do something he cannot accept it, he say to me that I am reading to much into it. I could tell him that he is not reading enough in to it but he would not like it. another example is when I give free stuff to Simon to help him with the web site and Vesuvius say to me what is all this? it is not the way to help Simon. at the place of doing this he could try to help Simon also . but then again he might not like it that I tell him the-

(05 Dec '13, 11:56) white tiger I usely do not tell him those things because he is already negative against what I do, so of course he cannot accept it. I could have put many more example like this but I think I have said enough on this subject I am not seeking division. if he would be able to drink water he would see is own reflection and would not do those things.

(05 Dec '13, 11:59) white tiger

@Monty I may be able to help you with this part ~ "And whats the divide?"

"and we are more powerfull united then divided. then why judge and make a division? should we not seek harmony,understanding and truth?"

From what was said prior ~ my guess the divide wt is referring to is judgment...

(03 Jan '14, 02:08) ele
showing 2 of 9 show 7 more comments

What is wine but Spirit in water? The wedding parable fits in here. When we drink the water from His mouth do we not have Spirit entering us?

The old wine is us thinking we can rely on our works for salvation. To have a new life in Christ, we must completely discard this old idea and walk in the newness of His life, drink His water and trust Him to lead us.

EDITED 2014-1-7 And, @White Tiger, of COURSE you are a "divider"!

In Luke 12:51-53 (Matt 10:34-35) Jesus told his disciples, “Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division. (52) For from now on five in one house will be divided: three against two, and two against three. (53) Father will be divided against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.”

There is no middle ground. There are no spectators. You are either with the Law or against It. Make up your Mind to follow your Heart.


answered 05 Jan '14, 12:16

Dollar%20Bill's gravatar image

Dollar Bill

edited 06 Jan '14, 09:50

@Dollar bill I bring a sword and that sword is the sword of truth.

what if I tell you that people are all ready divided when they do not respect the first and second commandment. follow the word of truth. These things saith He which hath the sharp sword with two edges. will you like Arthur take the sword out of the stone? what was needed to do that? maybe you could find it on the water? who is lady of the lake? did this touch your mind before?

(09 Jan '14, 09:34) white tiger
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