Is the societal stability that comes with values and morals necessary for our continued spiritual growth and happiness, or is it OK to live with chaos?

asked 14 Nov '09, 07:45

Vesuvius's gravatar image


There are two aspects to your question and I think both are flawed :)

1. You are saying that societal stability comes with values and morals.

I would suggest that societal stability comes from people following their inner feelings about doing what they really want to do. I believe it was Richard Buckminster Fuller who espoused the philosophy that if everyone in the world did what they really wanted to do, everything would get done - because we are all part of a broader collective consciousness that takes all of that into account.

Abraham have also said similar things on many occasions and have even added that much of the violence that is happening in today's society is a reaction against the perceived imposition of particular rules from others. They have said that if people were left to do what they wanted, our world would naturally become a happy, harmonious place. You just don't want to hurt or harm others when you are feeling happy within yourself.

But, in any case, your world is a reflection of the thoughts you predominantly hold so you can quite happily live in a chaotic society and not get caught up in the chaos.

2. Is it okay to live with chaos?

Who defines what chaos is? Someone else's chaos may just be my own adventurous lifestyle.


answered 14 Nov '09, 10:02

Stingray's gravatar image


If I am a truck driver, and I decide I don't feel like coming to work for a week, how does my load get delivered? Do I still have a job?

(14 Nov '09, 16:45) Vesuvius

It will be delivered by those that like driving trucks. If a truck driver doesn't come into work because he doesn't like his work then I think it will be beneficial for him in the long run to pursue another calling. If losing his job accelerates that process, then that doesn't seem like such a bad thing.

(14 Nov '09, 21:46) Stingray

It would be nice to believe that the world would settle into a stable state where everyone is happy, and all people's individual rights were respected. Unfortunately I don't think human beings as a whole are spiritually advanced enough to make that possible.

When we grow up, our parents placed restrictions on our behavior to keep us safe. This was not intended to be limiting. In fact, these restrictions actually freed us to explore the world within the safety of our parent's boundaries. It gave us the ability to learn and grow without the peril of accidental death or serious injury. The rules our parents gave us continue that function of safety today.

In the same way, morals and laws keep people's behavior in check, so that we can live in a stable society, and interact with each other in safe ways.

It's hard to imagine getting any fundamentally significant spiritual done in an environment filled with chaos. How on earth would we meditate? :)


answered 15 Nov '09, 02:03

Vesuvius's gravatar image


given that this is an orderly universe - how could we flourish personally or as a society, under chaos...


answered 19 Nov '09, 09:41

naomi's gravatar image


Chaos and order, are two faces of the same law. the law of life. no matter what we do, both will always exist. there is no way for one to exist without the other. most of us live according to laws and orders because we only use one part of our mind. the conscious mind. this mind can't handle chaos. it just can't understand it. so it forces us to control it. the more we try to control it, the more powerful it gets. we control crime, but natural disasters gets stronger. we control beliefs, but choices get more random. the more we believe that we are in control, the more we get hit by chaos. all that because we are only using the conscious mind. while the part of our minds that is connected to what we call chaos, is the subconscious. it's more free, more random, it's totally unpredictable. ( God works in mysterious ways ) .. our spiritual growth didn't even begin yet. to begin, we must understand life, and how our minds work with both principles of life. order and chaos. did you notice that in ancient civilizations .. the more they get ''advanced'' they get to a point, when they simply totally destroyed. for no ''logical'' reason at all ? .. that's how chaos works. it strikes when we think that everything is ''under control''. stability with laws and morals is an illusion. it only exists in our mind for as long as it takes chaos to take action. the key word here is .. balance. poles exist to keep balance. without understanding of the law of balance in life, there is no real spiritual growth. what we think is spiritual growth is nothing more than another false belief. we believe that our spirituality is growing .. it's not. in fact, the opposite is what's happening. when reality is in conflict with what we think, then we are living a lie. and believe it. life just doesn't care about what we think. it only cares about what we do. it reacts, and goes on. with or without us. values and morals are created by us, to satisfy us. the personal conscious mind within us, that we think is ''us''. the hidden part of our mind that deals with the hidden laws of life, is blocked. without understanding it, and being aware of it .. there is no spiritual growth. there is no spirituality at all. this part of our minds not only understands and deals with the hidden laws of life, it also unites all individual forms of life. when this part is active, we wont even need to invent morals to unite us. when you see that happens, we can say that we have a real spiritual growth. now, we are only another advanced animals. not the only ones, as we may believe. but only a different kind. with different individual understanding. but with no spiritual understanding. yet.


answered 14 Nov '09, 20:28

Adel's gravatar image


I would have to say yes, because God set morals and values an long time ago with proverbs,the ten comandments and psalms which helps sooth your soul.

When Eve and Adam were in the Garden of Eden he told them what he didn't want them to do about eating of the tree of knowledge.

We have to have some form of balance and a way I guess of judging whether we are living in a chaeos world or not. For if there was no rules or regulations how would you know?

But you can place to many rules and regulations; you have to kind of balance it out a little bit and don't overly apply them or else you will have accomplish chaos trying to bring balance.

What is wild abandonment of life for one is trying to kill your self to another so we are all different as well as we all similiar is some ways and connect through our father God and brother Jesus Christ.


answered 22 Nov '09, 07:54

flowingwater's gravatar image


I believe values and morals are necessary for a free and stable society. There is a contrast in that though - since such are restricting. However, what I do not believe, is that some specific "set" values and morals are absolutely necessary. One issue I have with such moral systems, is they often seem to rely on the premise that humans have some inherent nature that is "evil" (if such a thing can be said to exist) which needs to be controlled. I think that premise is backwards, personally.

I do believe, that people need to figure out their - own - set of values and stick by them...and that these needn't be ones held by everyone in all cases, or in all situations. For example, I see the value of a stable monogamous relationship for raising children, sharing resources if desired etc. However, my personal values run almost in contrast to that. (as of right now - I suspect a time may come when I am more favorable towards it as I age) I believe in the - personal - value of polyamory. I have my reasons for this. Some people consider it absolutely abhorrent. My own mother shows some acceptance, but misses the point when she claims: "You could still marry one person, and tell them you'll love them and only them, but you will have sex with others". It is not about sex, in my case. Does that mean one goes and sneaks around? Maybe. But, I also have the value of transparency. In the end - what I will be left with is my integrity...or lack thereof.

I agree with what Stingray said - practically in total. I was unaware of Fuller, he sounds like interesting pondering. I have read the idea from other sources as well though, so he is by no means the only (or even first) proponent. Aleister Crowley put forth such an idea as well - and centuries beforehand was Francis Rabelais.

All that said - I think 'set' values and morals are necessary for society that is structured as ours currently is and many of the people within it. But I do not believe it is an absolute necessity.


answered 24 Nov '09, 06:58

Liam's gravatar image


I believe that people need boundrys to control their behavior, some people have killed their cheating wives and husbands and it is called "An Act of Passion" and is not prosecuted in some states because the law realizes that there are some emotions that can not be controlled, when someone you love is found with another person then that little green eyed monster pops up its little head and all reason goes out the window. So are the morals and values society imposes on us their for our own protection? I would have to say, YES. And yes, evil does exist, just look in the eyes of Charles Manson.

(26 Nov '09, 01:03) Goodisevil

I think we don't need morals and values at all to create a free and stable society. The mere fact that there are morals and values in place that will form the basis for our thoughts and actions implies that we are not going to be free to make certain choices.

Also, we are all so different. How can we have a defined set of morals and values that will be applicable to everyone? There is always going to be people who do not agree and try to break free of these morals and values leading to instability.


answered 24 Nov '09, 21:55

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