If you will bear with me for a moment, I will illustrate my question with an example. I'm not picking on anybody in particular, so let's just call this person Joe.
I am having a discussion about evolutionary theory with Joe. Here is an excerpt from our discussion:
I go get the book and read it. The book doesn't say what Joe says it does. In fact, it supports my viewpoint, not his. It is apparent that Joe's idea is false.
Here's my question:
Is Joe's idea useful in any way, and if so, why?
asked 04 May '10, 20:55
showing 0 of 3 show 3 more comments
It must be remembered that belief in a thing can create a reality behind it of an existing useful idea to many while completely bogus to others. Example I'll use is Erich von Däniken's Chariots of the Gods. Everything in his studies points to the fact we were visited by beings alien to our planet many millennia ago. He has a big following that agree with his findings, then there are other scientist that say Erich von Däniken's theories are way off base and they point to the fact that he has his facts wrong.
So there are scientist that agree and scientist that disagree with this and both consider themselves to be right and the others wrong, both have big followings of people after them that fully agree and both have studies and people writing reports on why they are right.
If you ask me, I find it funny how much humans have to be right and have the others proven wrong. I find it interesting and like the wonder of it all, to think wow this could be or maybe not but it is an interesting idea to study either way. In other words in the mystery of possibility and wonder is the joy of the wow experience, when you actually find the answer it is gone.
answered 05 May '10, 06:53
So you don't find Joe's idea useful?
(05 May '10, 14:46) Vesuvius
I am sorry you missed my point, Joe's idea is useful to Joe and all who agree and think like Joe.
(05 May '10, 21:12) Wade Casaldi
very good wade.why chose the left or the right leg to walk both are needed and need a proper balence, it is better to walk on both legs then to cut one off,is it not?
(11 Aug '12, 13:27) white tiger
I like your answer very much Wade :-) Everyone views from a different vista point
(14 Mar '13, 22:28) Starlight
@Starlight it is not only about view point.awareness and understand also play a big part.2 person can say the same thing yet understand it or view it differentely.each of them can have right understanding or wrong understanding or a mix of those according to there awareness,view and understand on different subject.If you can learn the truth about all this with out having to opposse anny one you will learn more then both of those two joe and me. you will become the hypothenuse and will obtain the
(14 Mar '13, 23:48) white tiger
the value of two accute value. joe and me. you become the circle that contain both joe and me. is it so hard to understand that the hypothenuse join two value and can give the right mesure.
(14 Mar '13, 23:55) white tiger
I don"t believe there is an Absolute Truth about anything
(15 Mar '13, 10:36) Starlight
@starlight you can believe and put the veil you want it does not change truth.only your perception of the truth.only personnal belief and personnal veil are subjective.2 person can argue one seeing the wall white and the other person seeing the wall dark.yet the third person can see why one see it white and the other see it dark.And give the correct mesure.You always need a third reference point to find a position mesure or angle.i will drop you in the wood with a map and compass you will learn
(15 Mar '13, 18:43) white tiger
that i am telling you the truth. trigonometry is 3 point of reference to give you your exact location on a map.Same thing for hypothenuse with a triangle.You know about satellite positionning or gps. they all use trigonometry to give you the exact location where you are.Does the gps give you your location on a map?Does it tell you the truth?You believe that no one as lead exact duplicate life. yet physically we all are similar and we all experience similar experience yet sometime there
(15 Mar '13, 18:53) white tiger
is little variance from one person to the next based on personnal choice and life experience according to those choice in that it is not exactely the same. is joe and me not talking about other reference point darwin? Is it because it is darwin that is choice is better then someone else? if he made another choice and replaced something (evolutionnary theory) with something else means that he is evolving is this sexual?Or is this right?Darwin thinks that human are evolved ape.And even that is not
(15 Mar '13, 19:17) white tiger
-perfectely accurate.is (joe and me) fighting over who understand Darwin more correctely?Or are they fighting about the innacuracy of Darwin statement?in (me) case it seams that he is fighting over who understand Darwin better.And in (joe) case it seams that he discovered something that (me) could not understand yet.Has for Darwin he is not even in the discusion as participant.But the fact is that(me) is going only by what Darwin said and (Joe) is pass that point.so (me) would represent A and
(15 Mar '13, 19:29) white tiger
(Joe) would represent B.If you do your math correctely:A+B=C.And Darwin is not even in the exchange in this triangle so he is obsolete.If (Me) wants to find out more he should talk to (Joe) with out sticking to much to Darwin.Did they read the exact same book to beguin with?Or do they assume that they read the same book?
(15 Mar '13, 19:35) white tiger
@white tiger , you know what I love about life ,is that each of us is Free to choose what works for us without having to justify it to anyone else :-) Ten people can witness a car accident and each of them will have a truth , no matter how much you want to analyse it ,from their point , how they saw it for them will be true .
(15 Mar '13, 19:59) Starlight
@Starlight you say:how they saw it for them will be true. yet they are not alone,so what they will see is true yet some part will not be true.So if you would be a cop and ask each of those people what was the accident each of them will have similar story and also different version of the story.Then what is the truth? is it not what they all agree on that is similar.Yet someone could have something different that is also true but that the other one did not see.As for the rest that is not in truth
(15 Mar '13, 23:10) white tiger
it is according to their own perception,belief,imagination,moral filter,veil of their own making. for personnal choice totally agree with you.And to justify it to someone else could be a waste of time,if they have their own personnal view on this.smile.
(15 Mar '13, 23:16) white tiger
@White tiger is it truth that at this moment in time you and I are vibrationally linked , yet in the next moment if i choose to no longer acknowledge you , for me , my truth with be in my world/reality .....you no longer exist ? As Stingray would say "you are a current guest " in my world .
(15 Mar '13, 23:18) Starlight
@Starlight If you make the personnal choice to no longuer acknowledge me it is your personnal choice you are the one responsible of it.Is it in truth?Only on your veil of perception since we live in this world i would say it is not the truth only your own belief and self imposse limitation,that blind you to the truth.If you eat from the fruit of division and cut your self from the true vine.Are you in truth or in division?You say i am a guess in your world but you are also a guess in my world.-
(16 Mar '13, 14:11) white tiger
I do not seek division and the one that sent me does not seek division.The one that sent me told you to not eat from that tree or you would surely die.If you want to be a dead branch that withers,it is your choice and you have no one else to blame. But you have free will if that is what you want for your self so be it.We will respect your choice as you should respect our choice.
(16 Mar '13, 14:17) white tiger
showing 2 of 18 show 16 more comments
Your question is implying that there is "A TRUTH" that all people have to understand and follow and as a result, we will all lead a happy life as we will all be in agreement.
I don't think that there is a "single universal truth or idea" that we should all agree to. We just choose to believe in something from the evidence that we observe in our daily lives and that is all that matters. That we choose to believe in that thing and therefore that thing stands "true" in our reality and benefits our expansion. It does not matter what anybody else thinks or believes.
It does not mean that if an idea benefits or has benefited somebody that it will definitely benefit somebody else. We should observe our realities and only believe the things we want to believe from it and if we don't like certain things in our reality, I think it is perfectly fine to believe in something that we make up if that makes us happy.
Also, I wanted to point out that I would absolutely hate to always meet people who always agree with my beliefs and ideas. The conversation would be so boring....
Simple answer: Joe's idea is very useful.
answered 06 May '10, 08:41
@Pink Diamond , loved this "and if we don't like certain things in our reality, I think it is perfectly fine to believe in something that we make up if that makes us happy."
because after all , is this not what we do when we visualise , imagine , etc . ♥♥♥ Thank you :-)
(12 Aug '12, 01:51) Starlight
I don't know if the idea can be perceived as useful but there is no point arguing with that person who believes they are right, even if you know they are wrong. In their world they are right and their mind cannot perceive your point of view because their awareness has not expanded enough to do so.
answered 05 May '10, 01:13
It depends... some will find it useful and others won't for different reasons.
Is it important? I don't know. The bigger question at this point for me is: "Is any idea or belief important?"
My answer to that is no. We give importance to our beliefs for whatever reason... but they are all choices, none of them are really more valid or important than others.
What is useful to me is how well an idea or thought can serve me personally. It doesn't matter how well it serves everyone else, but if it can serve me greatly, than it is useful to me.
It doesn't matter what the book says, really. It doesn't even matter if any one else in the world finds the idea useful. But if Joe finds it useful, finds that it serves him in whatever way, than it is useful to Joe.
Let's take... the color brown and five people. Four out of those five dislike brown. The fifth loves brown. Does it make brown a bad color because the majority dislike it? No- brown isn't good or bad, it just is. One chooses to make it good while others make it bad.
The idea itself is not what's important or useful- if Joe finds it useful, than it's useful to Joe, even if it is illogical to Bob. :)
answered 11 Aug '12, 16:31
@LapisLazuli That is exactly my point in my answer as well. Agreed. :-)
(11 Aug '12, 17:57) Wade Casaldi
in truth it can be usefull. to learn about the color or to learn about the person choice or point of view or base of knowledge(truth). bob might not be up to date with joe reasonning. bob needs to open is mind to the truth of joe.
(11 Aug '12, 19:12) white tiger
It all comes down to the preservation of the species (which is an innate natural instinct).
The uselfulness of an idea is always true for the one that believes it or percieves it to be real. Until that person realizes the world is not flat, what can you do? They will live their life accordingly. Isn't that ok?
answered 05 May '10, 03:48
I sometimes think our politicians live their lives this way. Which is why our government is so screwed up.
(05 May '10, 14:51) Vesuvius
LOL, yea, its called propaganda,
(06 May '10, 13:07) RPuls
Here is a beautiful quote from Osho
"Life in itself is an empty canvas; it becomes whatsoever you paint on it. You can paint misery, you can paint bliss. This freedom is your glory."
Now to answer the question; when we perceive misery it is a reflection of our inner state of misery, our inner vibration ... when we perceive bliss it is a reflection of our inner state of bliss, our inner vibration. Perception is being aware directly through our senses, it is entirely subjective and depends on what is going on in our mind. If our mind is full of hate we will see and feel hate all around us, if our mind is full of love we will see and feel love all around. If our mind is still and empty we will enter into harmony with perfection and perceive and feel perfection all around us. When we have an idea, that idea has a certain vibration corresponding to the nature of that idea that will attract into our reality those things and people that vibrate at the same frequency. This is the whole principle of how the tarot deck functions. The idea of a person is always true for that particular person, is always a specific vibration for that person at that particular point in time and space. Personal truth and personal reality are interdependent, we create our own truth, our own reality.
answered 15 Mar '13, 06:16
ru bis, we create at times what we want to believe, so it becomes our reality yet it may not be the truth. the truth does not depend on human intellectualization, just our lot
(15 Mar '13, 17:47) fred
sure @fred we create our own truth, whether "the truth" exists or not is irrelevant to the question in hand, that is, "how useful is an idea that is true for only one person" :) and my answer is that it's only useful for that person and for those persons with which it resonates. Each individual has their own truth following their beliefs as seen through their own mask ... there is however just one eternal truth.
(16 Mar '13, 01:58) ru bis
@ru bis The truth is always relevant,the word is truth,is words are truthfull and eternal from the beguinning to the end.How useful is an idea that is true for only one person? I would say that if all the jewel that came on earth did not share the truth that they know with other that could not understand what they talked about and the usefullness of it.that this world would be vain usefull.Think about it this way every one that discovered something before the other in this world became-
(16 Mar '13, 02:23) white tiger
the precursor of something new for every one that followed.With out those jewels probably that their would be no life on earth right now.Then you could not even ask this question("how useful is an idea that is true for only one person")because there would be no person to answer it in this world.All the blind would have fallen in to a pit.Be glad that some are not blind and are able to see what you cannot see.
(16 Mar '13, 02:32) white tiger
"be glad that some are not blind and are able to see what you cannot see" thanks for the enlightenment @white tiger
(16 Mar '13, 02:49) ru bis
ru bis, it maybe that the Truth actually matters for all of creation as even Samael acknowledged
(16 Mar '13, 06:07) fred
showing 2 of 7 show 5 more comments
When I have to deal with 'Joe' Awareness I remember something my mother told me long ago."They are doing the best they can with what they have. You still have to love them." Seldom to we expand their consciousness with words.It is our expanded consciouness vibrating like a tuning fork and sometimes Joe's expansion takes awhile and sometimes we see results somewhat quickly. Useful? For 'Joe' when he looks back on where he was, he can rejoice at his own progress. And if you are still in Joe's life you can also.
answered 05 May '10, 06:10
Do you have to be "expanded" to recognize truth?
(05 May '10, 14:47) Vesuvius
I think we all can look back and see points in our lives where we were not 'Open' to particular truths, physical truths,political truths or Spiritual. Expansion of our consciousness occurs all the time. Our Belief System changes therefore truth as we preceive it changes..
(10 May '10, 05:58) G16
it is not the truth that changes only your perception of it.experience and enjoy.
(12 Aug '12, 12:57) white tiger
showing 2 of 3 show 1 more comments
How useful is an idea that is true for only one person? Is Joe's idea useful in any way, and if so, why?
In the context you put it in, it is not very useful. The idea is false to begin with. That will get Joe absolutely nowhere. Even though he believes it to be true through and through, it will not benefit him one bit. Actually he may and will be ridiculed at some point. Believing a lie is a sad state of affairs.
As an example: In a friendly discussion one time, a person told me that Jesus Christ was an Italian. I explained to him that Jesus was Jewish. He contested. I asked him if he knew the song 'O little town of Bethlehem'. He said yes. I explained that song is about Jesus Christ. He agreed. Then I asked him, where in Italy is Bethlehem situated. He couldn't answer and still argued Jesus was Italian. A year later I met again. He said to me that he checked out what I told him the preceding year and that I was right and thank me for correcting him.
Had he continued in his belief, he would have been mocked or ridiculed. I took the opportunity to dispel that falsehood. It could have gone only to ways. He could have continued believing a false premise or change his 'idea' for a correct one.
Wade mentioned, "I find it funny how much humans have to be right and have the others proven wrong."
It's not a question of proving one wrong, I look at it as helping someone on a wrong road find the right one. Just as you did, trying to simply make the point to Joe that he mis-read that portion in Darwin's book.
Joe's response about interpretation is completely off track. It has absolutely nothing to do with interpretation. It has to do with regular reading comprehension.
The comment you made to G16, "Do you have to be "expanded" to recognize truth?" I would tend to say no. How expanded do you want to be when you clearly show Joe (someone) in plain black and white the point you are making. I have been in situations where an explanation with proper examples proved a point, moved me to a position to reconsider my facts with what I was presented with. Had my ego been part of my decision , I would have stayed with my original 'idea'.
For myself, truth is the foundation of any belief system. Acceptance of any 'truth' does not imply rigidity or constraint, or denote dogma. Instead, as new data become available, previous explanations are revised and improved, or rejected and replaced.
When you have a 'truth', it leads you to a belief, only when it is challenged do you see its soundness. Joe is a good example of this.
As time passes, the truth you have believed in will be tried, tested and finally be found true.
answered 06 May '10, 06:18
God is truth,the word is truth,the truth does not change,only your perception and understanding of the truth.so trust and learn from the truth,as for belief some are in the truth and some are not. be wise enuff to make the distinction.faith is not belief, have faith in the truth,experience and enjoy.
(12 Aug '12, 13:02) white tiger
Honestly, the dialogue should have gone like this.
As I said in the comment section light years ago...Focusing on the object of argument is dead ground. But focusing on the person's intention that brought the argument up is a way to tackle him.
Nice example would be, a person A decides to go somewhere, person B tries to stop person A from going by trying to argue about the place A is planning to go to. = B fails to stop person A from going.
However, if person B attacks person A's intentions which are the drive of wanting to go to that certain place, not only can B stop A from going, B may make A go somewhere else.
Ultimately, unaware people's actions take place, because they feel the need to strengthen their identity. By focusing on their intentions (attempt to strengthen the identity) you can negate their actions effect and undermine their identity. Which would set them back and in doubt.
And although some may argue that this is way to manipulate others, it's also the way prevent any headache when dealing with various people.
Btw, Gordon Ramsay does this perfectly in his shows (e.g. kitchen nightmares)... if you want to see it used, watch some of them.
This answer is marked "community wiki".
answered 15 Mar '13, 03:43
This is a frustrating situation. Any subject dealing with a physical reality (math/science/econ) has verifiable relationships that lead to verifiable conclusions. But some people simply don't accept them, and choose to ignore reality.
This often comes up when discussing politics. You use the White House budget & Consumer Price Index to show how run-away spending causes inflation, and people respond by quoting vague sound-bytes to you. They don't understand the facts, so they get mad and respond with meaningless generalities.
You can respond one of two ways. a. Drop the subject. b. Explain the principle in dispute simply, concretely, and point-by-point. Go through it step by step, like a geometry proof. Make sure Joe understands all the steps, and make it clear that you're explaining and not arguing. He'll have no choice but to understand the principle, unless he gets mad and walks away. In that case, he might not admit it, but he'll know that he's off base and might comment around eventually.
answered 14 Mar '13, 21:37
Why not become the hypothenuse of joe and me, mesure where they link together in their exchange and to what angle they are opposite,in this way you will be able to have precise mesure. is that not a magic plan? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X-kmUhPC4Q
(15 Mar '13, 00:15) white tiger
Are you suggesting that you and Joe are at right angles to each other? Since Joe is wrong, that suggests that you're right. If I'm the hypotenuse between you, then I'm partially right and partially wrong, since I have component vectors on your axis and Joe's.
(15 Mar '13, 00:47) Damien
@Damien What i am saying is that you can remain silent with out having to take a side and see what joe and me are saying and find the right understanding and the wrong understanding why it is so. and find the mesure of the angle compare to the exchange between them. like this you can become the hypotenuse that mesure them on there right and wrong understanding. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOzC_-lirNI you have your own gyroscope to mesure angle your own perception to see what is in front of
(15 Mar '13, 01:12) white tiger
your face and take that mesure so if you mesure A+b=c.then if you made the right mesure and the plan did not change the mesure will be the same every time.it is logical in mathematic in plan making and in human interaction.human do not change much after all if you interact with someone often you will see that they often stay the same and their mind,view,understanding does not change often.if you know 2 people enuff and know their interest point you can determinate the discution before it-
(15 Mar '13, 01:22) white tiger
happens. they will give the same mesure and the same subject of conversation will come up.being the hypotenuse you have no wrong in you since you do not take side and just seek the right mesure of the interaction between two acute value(joe and me).you could also do it your self with joe just by exchanging information not taking side or opposing just giving a true value. then you just have mesure joe out. is right view and understanding and is wrong view and understanding.i gave you a third view
(15 Mar '13, 01:35) white tiger
the hypotenuse not taking side just mesuring and seeking true value.
(15 Mar '13, 01:38) white tiger
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The idea doesn't matter, the way of justifying the idea does. You shouldn't argue with the idea but argue with the way it's being presented. That will often lead to awakening awareness in anyone who hears the argument.
take what is true. that joe is right or wrong or that the person who wrote the book is right or wrong,is not your problem why judge one or the other? you should stay in truth.only in truth will you have a sound judgement. but if you judge someone has wrong from the start.what will you learn? and people will do the same so what will they learn from you? joe might have found something you did not? that is for you to find out. experience and enjoy.
water fall in a waterfall but water can also rise in a waterfall then why stick only to one side? http://www.jokeroo.com/videos/cool/reverse-waterfall.html