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I am convinced by my own spiritual experience that Jesus is the Savior and Redeemer of mankind. That the New Testament is a true record of His earthly ministry and that Jesus of Nazareth is in fact Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament - the God of Israel. The God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. I have been an atheist, and an agnostic, as well as a heathen and hedonist. Now I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints in large part due to the Book of Mormon's witness of Jesus Christ. Through the restoration of the gospel God’s words are now going “into all the earth”, and his words through the scriptures – especially The Book of Mormon – are going “unto the ends of the world”.

I say especially The Book of Mormon because that particular book contains powerful doctrinal statements and answers to the philosophies or precepts of men that are so relevant to our time.

I must tell you that these things are sacred and spiritually discerned. And the Lord has warned us not to trifle with sacred things. If you read the Book of Mormon in a faithless, cynical way, or if you kind of just skim through it, you will not find answers. Yet, if you will diligently read it, with faith in Christ, The Book of Mormon makes you this promise:

… when ye shall receive these things, … if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

asked 19 Jul '13, 15:00

Mormonboy's gravatar image


edited 25 Jul '13, 02:17

Jaianniah's gravatar image


Is it Fast Sunday or what?

(21 Jul '13, 21:18) LeeAnn 1

Remember the Bible story about Jesus throwing out the money changers and people selling temple goods (animals to sacrifice) outside the Temple? It angered him. Ask yourself why. Before you can enter the temple, what does one need besides a recommend? Garments! And who sells those garments, right on the temple grounds? The Church? Oooppps!

(21 Jul '13, 21:22) LeeAnn 1

Garments are mostly sold inside Deseret Book stores and other distribution centers. Mostly off of Temple grounds.

(23 Jul '13, 14:22) Mormonboy

But adjacent, correct?

(23 Jul '13, 22:18) LeeAnn 1

Man. Props to you Mormonboy, I have never seen a reaction of this nature from this crowd.

Hope you don't mind a bit of passion expressed on topics of interest, apparently this strikes a chord across the board for God knows why.

What perplexes me.. I can produce a plethora of videos outlining all of the reasons different major religions are bullocks, just like everyone else here. Yet this seems to be the only religion where dramatic inconsistency is INTOLERABLE! ^_^ Hope you do this some more..

(24 Jul '13, 00:15) Snow

Well no LeeAnn, they are actually down the street and around the corner. The distribution center in Boise was until recently located within the Temple grounds, but it has been closed and as far as I know distribution centers are not located within Temple grounds. But I admit that I am not familiar with the 140+ temples that dot the earth.

(24 Jul '13, 00:43) Mormonboy

Thank you Snow, Christ taught us to love our neighbor as our self, and even to love our enemies. I hope to be able to live up to that teaching. I do not consider anyone here to be my enemy, I must hasten to add. But we are all seekers after truth. I think I can learn truth from you and from everyone else here.

(24 Jul '13, 00:55) Mormonboy

And if it is true, it will be accepted and embraced by me. if I am able to share something that rings true to someone else here - great. All truth is part of the great whole. I also am convinced that believing in something does not mean it is true - often when I have discovered something true it has caused me to change my beliefs.

(24 Jul '13, 00:56) Mormonboy

At the Chicago area Temple, the store is either on the grounds or just adjacent. I am positive. But we can let this go for now.

(24 Jul '13, 22:49) LeeAnn 1

@Mormonboy - I have not read the Book of Mormon, and have never had any plans to. But there do seem to be some nice Mormon people out there. I'm glad you found a philosophy and tradition that inspires you. Welcome to Inward Quest! This is a Law of Attraction, Spirituality, Mind Power Q&A Forum. You can learn some pretty interesting things about that here if those subjects interest you. Wishing you all the best.

(27 Jul '13, 01:42) lozenge123

thanks lozenge123, I'm happy to be here. I think it's healthy to hear differing views. Actually I'm extremely interested in Law of Attraction, Spirituality, Mind Power etc.. I feel all truth combines into a great whole. I do follow Jesus' teachings and think you can find he or the Bible taught all of those things. For example "the kingdom of God is within you" Luke 17:21. "For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he" Proverbs 23:7

(27 Jul '13, 14:44) Mormonboy

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. I Corinthians 2:12. We all came from the same source and are all on the same journey back to that source. May we all find the true path to happiness in the light.

(27 Jul '13, 14:48) Mormonboy

@Mormonboy - Yes, there is a lot of overlap. If you search the forum, you'll find a lot of previous discussions about this.

(29 Jul '13, 14:47) lozenge123
showing 1 of 13 show 12 more comments

I was born in 1950. I was baptized a member of the Mormon church when I was 10 years old. Went every Sunday with my grand parents on my fathers side of the family. My parents were divorced but my mother wanted me to know the family religion. So I went. Fell away when I was 16 due to my new job and working Sundays. Came back to the church when I was 27 because of an experience that pointed to the spiritual hole in my life. But my first real question about the church happened that next year, 1978. An amazing revelation from the prophet and leaders of the church. God had revealed that the black people of the world could now hold the Mormon priesthood.

I was fine with them having the priesthood. Even excited. Here was an amazing revelation from God himself. But in the back of my mind was this question... "Did God change his mind?" Or more basically... "God changed? God is the same yesterday, today and forever. How can God change... at all?" But like a good and obedient member of the church, I put this question way in the back of my mind to be forgotten... until "the next big question" hit me really hard.

I went through the temple for my own endowments in 1980. It was a bit strange at first, but I let it all be OK because so many had gone before me and I personally knew so many who were good and righteous people who had been through many times through the years of their lives. And all was well that day for the most part... until that part at the veil. In order to enter the Celestial room, a temple metaphor for the highest kingdom in heaven, one must converse with the Lord at the veil where a man stands on the other side of the veil (curtain) and poses as the Lord to receive my signs and tokens to enter. And in order to enter the highest kingdom of God, one must know and repeat the sighs and tokes of the priesthood AND repeat the proper wording or passwords to get in.

After I was in the Celestial room of the temple, I couldn't help but wonder why God would need me to know and repeat signs, tokens and passwords to get into heaven with Him. Doesn't he know it's me? Can God be fooled by impostor's? This was Really weird! You mean to tell me the church believes I must "Convince" God I am who I AM?!? What? He doesn't remember me? You mean God Forgets?!? BUT... like a good member, I worked really hard to put all of this back in the back of my mind because so many had gone through before me and They seemed to be alright with it all.

In 1986 I was married in the temple. Went on to have 5 children under the covenant. Was married for 16 years while filling my callings as home teacher, elders quorum presidency, gospel doctrine teacher, etc. But these two big questions were still back there in my mind with no answer. Which caused me to have an open mind about things I learned about the church. And as time went on, I began to have a collection of questions, none of which I could find logical, real and acceptable answers to.

I became aware of what was called "Apologetics" which is the defense of a position or belief and the church organization called FARMS. (Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies) As far as I could tell, this organizations job was to answer questions about the historicity and especially the archaeology of the church and whether it's authentic or not. And of course this made me ask myself, "You mean there's confusion about this?"

As time went on, I began to have an even bigger collection of questions about this and that. I even got into long conversations with my bishop and others about them. But in almost every case, their answers were weak and seemed pat and propagandist. Then one day in 2002, I was in a Waldens bookstore browsing the bible and spiritual shelves when suddenly, one book stood Right Out. The title was "One Nation Under Gods" by Richard Abanes. "Gods? Plural?" Snatched it from the shelf and began to read. It was the history of the church from the time of Joseph Smiths parents before he was born clear up to the "Mormon Olympics" in Salt Lake City, Utah in 2002. The history of the church... that NO ONE in the church will tell you about! It answered my questions with facts that I later was able to verify with my own research. This took a while, but I now know the truth. And in knowing the truth, my entire life changed drastically, to say the least.

Joseph Smith was somewhat pious, maybe a little. But more than anything, he was VERY narcissistic, a dreamer who, like his father, did NOT want to work but instead found a way to make a comfortable living praying on the gullibility of those who WANTED to believe there was something magical and mystical in their lives because that was Extremely popular during his time and place in the world! And he succeeded! But just like so many who take this path, he finally assumed too much loyalty to him by his followers and took too much advantage of his position and it eventually caught up with him. They killed him for doing things that were simply not acceptable. His lies caught up with him as is always the case with liar.

The church today is a great social organization. But as far as the Book of Mormon and the actual beliefs of the church go, unless you are talking about general goodness and kindness, the rest is totally false and the Book of Mormon is the product of a 19th century imagination, Plane and Simple. I know this for a fact from all of my research.

So Mormonboy, believe all you want. But just know there millions of us who smile at your naivete.


answered 20 Jul '13, 14:52

Rindor's gravatar image



Nice and detailed answer Rindor...For a so called Godly organisation its a pity they didn't accept black men to positions of authority a wee bit earlier. I believe that before 1978 only whites were allowed! Now im sure they've now changed that ruling..but hey...they should NEVER have had that in place anytime. But im sure god told them to stop being so racist and clean up their act.Pity he didn't tell them that from the get go.

(21 Jul '13, 05:31) Monty Riviera

Yes, blacks have been able to hold the priesthood since 1978. And the longer I'm out of the church and religion entirely, the more I see it for what it is. A crutch for those who are afraid to think for themselves. There's an old saying in the church... "When the elders have spoken, the thinking's been done." That's why Spencer W. Kimbal, a past profit of the church, kept repeating, "Feed my sheep". But here is the problem with that...

(21 Jul '13, 06:30) Rindor

Like you Rindor ive had a brush with organised religion. And like you im interested in TRUTH not doctrine . It now amazes me that i tried to believe some of the stuff I was taught. Thank God im out of it all now.Have a good day Rindor.

(21 Jul '13, 07:19) Monty Riviera

Very good observations, Rindor.

(22 Jul '13, 13:18) LeeAnn 1

All I can say is God bless you all. I did not get my testimony if you will, by research. And I can't lose it by research either. The only way to lose a testimony is to let go of it willfully. I have done that before and found out that only turning one's heart, mind and will to God brings peace and happiness. Turning away from God brings the opposite.

(22 Jul '13, 16:47) Mormonboy

@Mormonboy, did you read this page? If so, did you read this at the very bottom... "In the case of the Church vs. Truth, there is hard DNA evidence, written confessionals of wrongdoing and physical evidence that the jury in your mind should examine. Merely dismissing the facts as inadmissible (because they incriminate the church) will never lead you to reality." What did you not understand about it?

(22 Jul '13, 17:53) Rindor

" did NOT want to work but instead found a way to make a comfortable living praying on the gullibility" I think L. Ron. Hubbard followed in his footsteps "You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion."

(23 Jul '13, 17:50) ursixx

Rindor, Am I naive because I am willing to open myself up to a Spiritual power? You talk of doing research - what about spiritual research? Is not that what we are all doing one way or another? I promise I will not quote scripture very often but I am reminded of these verses in the New Testament -
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

(24 Jul '13, 01:31) Mormonboy

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

(24 Jul '13, 01:32) Mormonboy

In the case of the Church vs. Truth, there is hard DNA evidence, written confessionals of wrongdoing and physical evidence that the jury in your mind should examine. Merely dismissing the facts as inadmissible (because they incriminate the church) will never lead you to reality. Rindor I do not dismiss any evidence that is not beyond a reasonable doubt. but stating that there is evidence and producing the evidence are two different things. My evidence is spiritual and far more powerful to me.

(24 Jul '13, 01:43) Mormonboy

Interesting. You're quite the spin doctor. Seems you've forgotten your original question... "What are your feelings when you have read the Book of Mormon?" I am addressing this question and suddenly you're all about spiritual power and the New Testament. I am addressing Mormon history and doctrine, not the Bible. Any common Christian uses that. Since you've decided to add so much wiggle room, I've decided it's not worth the time to comment further except to say...

(24 Jul '13, 02:47) Rindor

...Mormon doctrine is false because it is written and can be challenged successfully. Your spiritual experiences and power are not based on Mormon history or doctrine. They are a mix of whatever you choose to believe. And believe me, when it comes to challenging a true believing Mormon's beliefs, they suddenly have Extremely selective memory which includes LOTS of wiggle room. I know this from personal experience. I used to do it too. And now you are doing it. LOL!

(24 Jul '13, 03:00) Rindor

The Bible is true scripture as is the BOfM and both teach the same doctrine. And because they are written, that can be proved successfully. My point in quoting the scripture was simply to point out that the Spirit reveals truth to those who do not resist the Spirit. It is your choice to reject the Book of Mormon. It was my choice to read it with faith in Christ and ask God if it was true. I received a spiritual confirmation that it is true. What are your feelings when you have read it that way?

(25 Jul '13, 02:05) Mormonboy

BTW why are you worried about wiggle room? Being free to choose we all have nothing but wiggle room.

(25 Jul '13, 02:10) Mormonboy

Well I did ask God if it was true mormonboy. He and I both agreed it was nonsense. It seems your hopeing that someone will read the book thru, ask an outside god that hasnt ever existed if its true. Then sit there starry eyed while god then turns them into a Mormon.You cant read something with "faith" if you don't believe it.You also cant ask god to make you believe it. There are many people on this site who have been involved or studied your religion.

(25 Jul '13, 02:19) Monty Riviera

They for the most part believe as I do that were ALL an extension of Source or to put it another way "ONE with God" Most of the conributors on this site have been involved in a variety of man made organised religions and have decided that there now making their "own minds up" There not going to role over and give away their hard fought independance to a group of misled and senile old rogues, wheather there mormon,christian catholic,muslim or whatever.

(25 Jul '13, 02:24) Monty Riviera

I sense your trying to evangelise a little mormonboy.I tried this too for years. I hope you stick around here and learn a few things. They will do against Josephs doctrine a little, but im hopeing youll soon develop your own! Your a physical embodiment of God almighty.You are to all intents and purposes God and Christ. You don't need joseph smith or his book. Your already pure and complete.

(25 Jul '13, 02:29) Monty Riviera

Mormonboy, 1 Corinthians 13:11 "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." If you read my story, you'll realize there was a time when I believed as you do. I taught it. I lived it. But as more evidence came forth, my eyes were opened and I saw the truth. Therefore, I am no longer able to be fooled into believing the BOM is divinely inspired when I Know it's the product of a con mans imagination.

(25 Jul '13, 03:13) Rindor

As for the bible, along with all the good it teaches, it is also full of conflicting views, stories, teachings and BS that condemn it right within it's own pages. So I just leave it closed to fuss with itself and those who believe in it. It is my preference to go to my own relationship with God. Not a book nor religion. And especially not another mans interpretation of God. You have found happiness in the church and the BOM. God bless you.

(25 Jul '13, 03:23) Rindor

One last thing... Monty Riviera is right. Thanks Monty. ;-)

(25 Jul '13, 03:38) Rindor

Monte, you are correct. I do want people to read the Book of Mormon and find out for themselves. Is that evangelizing? Perhaps. But that is a very Christian thing to do given that Jesus instructs disciples to do just that. And when they ask God if it is true they may or may not get an answer. That will depend on their faith and their desire to know for themselves. I do find it interesting that you say you Know God does not exist. Would you be willing to tell me how you know that?

(25 Jul '13, 12:41) Mormonboy

Mormonboy, please read my answers again. I have clearly stated that IAM God, furthermore I have also stated quite plainly that I believe you are too.I have written this very clearly.I have also stated that an " outside god" has never existed. I certainly didn't wish to say God didn't exist. He must do because IM HIM. And I know you exist because im not in the habit of talking to myself!! So God does exist, He is our own I AM NESS.

(25 Jul '13, 14:01) Monty Riviera

However mormonboy it is good to have you on this forum. Im glad your here, your here for a reason and I hope you hang around for a while.You may not be very successful in spreading joseph smiths religion, but you may make some new friends, learn something NEW and improve your own life. Ive learnt much on this site and thank myself for setting the whole thing up. You see im ONE with you AND Simon Templeton. In fact were all really just one person!

(25 Jul '13, 14:05) Monty Riviera

Were a compound unity made up of many. So welcome aboard brother!! Were all part of the Elohim,we all knew each other before we came here. And we all will when we leave. Why do I know this? I just do , you can take that or leave it, it wont matter much in the end.

(25 Jul '13, 14:08) Monty Riviera

Thank you Rindor, and may God also bless you in your search for truth and happiness. Monte quoted from the 13th chapter of I Corinthians - I love that chapter on the quality of charity. I think his choice of quote was to imply that my beliefs are childish or that when we become men we are childish if we continue to believe in God ( Monte correct me if I've misstated your intent) but I think if that is the case the Apostle Paul would not be your go to guy to make that point.

(25 Jul '13, 15:02) Mormonboy

Monte you in essence you bore your testimony that you Know the Book of Mormon is the product of a "con man's imagination". If that were true it would not have been able to last all these years and be the keystone of a world wide religion with members in the millions. I just don't believe that many intelligent people would not be able to see through it as you say you have been able to do. The truth is the Book of Mormon is a miracle and stands on it's own merit and is there for everyone to read.

(25 Jul '13, 15:17) Mormonboy
showing 2 of 26 show 24 more comments

Gunna start out by saying I have NOT read this particular holy book. Also welcome to IQ, glad to have you.

I think the Mormon faith is very young, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. This only becomes a problem to me when those involved are unawares of their own history. As long as you know what you're believing in, hell, more power to you. To me this question also brings light to the fact that someone who believes in Santa Clause can vehemently reject the existence of the Tooth Fairy and still believe they have ground to stand on. Humans are so funny in easily being able to spot splinters in other's eyes while ignoring the logs in their own.

I believe all religions have been getting a great deal wrong for a very long time, so why would I dislike your religion for getting it wrong less long than those who have had a great deal longer to get their $#!% together yet are still not much farther along than the comparative 'newbies'. If you've been at it for millennia and still haven't gotten it right, I'd start being concerned. Also I notice a few common points of attack (which I admit to using myself, but equally versus all religions not just Mormons) which people only seem to apply in one direction, against others and never themselves.

You just recently allowed certain minorities into your ranks! Terrible. This is a fun complaint, as long as we ignore the checkered pasts of.. every other religion. I'd rather have a religion regularly open to revision and correction because MAN gets it wrong rather than a religion which holds so tightly to its old beliefs it stifles growths whilst purposely censoring history where it made its own corrections while still condemning others for not getting it right the first time.

Your beliefs seem crazy and outlandish! Well.. I can accept this, because as far as I'm concerned all beliefs are crazy and outlandish until founded, and I have tons of crazy and outlandish beliefs beneath which I have no foundation.

Your prophet was lazy and only looking for a way to get by without working whilst getting away with whatever behavior he wanted! Which is EXACTLY what I would do if I had the opportunity. Which also sounds very similar to the behavior of some other organizations who have been known for 'selling salvation'.. I'd rather have someone get rich by making people happy and feel good and do good than someone get rich by making people afraid, deceptive, and hateful.

Also, if there is such a thing as reality creation I figure someone who managed to whip up a religion is probably pretty darn good at it. If they managed to create such a following in this manner, why would I believe they aren't just as capable of creating the reality of what they teach? To me if the physical world is subject to such severe changes it's even more likely the "spiritual" world or wherever from whence religions come is also subject to change.


answered 21 Jul '13, 21:49

Snow's gravatar image


There is so much misinformation about Joseph Smith it is not surprising that you have characterized him as you have. You have caught onto something when you say "I figure someone who managed to whip up a religion is probably pretty darn good at it. If they managed to create such a following in this manner". You characterize the LDS Church as young but to a "Mormon" it's the oldest religion. Started with Adam and restored numerous times -once by Jesus himself. This last time through Joseph Smith.

(22 Jul '13, 18:07) Mormonboy

My feelings are that the book of Mormon is a man made addition to quite a few other man made additions.

The original isn't here anymore and I think its a load of bollocks.

Ive studied their doctrine and believe its the biggest load of fanciful clap trap ive ever read. It amazes STUNS ME that anyone can actually believe that stuff.

BUT hey ho...I believe im Jesus Christ and a lot of people don't believe that either!

Never mind...each to his own eh.


answered 19 Jul '13, 15:08

Monty%20Riviera's gravatar image

Monty Riviera

Hello Monty, Thanks for responding. My intuition tells me you have not read it.

(19 Jul '13, 15:41) Mormonboy

let alone prayed about it. This is a real experiential test you can do. Read and pray about - then answer the question.

(19 Jul '13, 15:45) Mormonboy

Pray to who?IM GOD who do I pray too?

(19 Jul '13, 17:26) Monty Riviera

And I have answered your question. My intuition tells me you don't like my answer! My answer remains the same. Anyone who believes the Mormon doctrine and the book of Mormon is misled and misguided. The book makes me want to laugh, the churches beliefs make me feel the same way. That the answer.My answer, Gods answer...same thing.Your religions a joke pal, man made utter shite. No offense meant sunshine.

(19 Jul '13, 17:30) Monty Riviera

Ouch.....i do feel that mormonboy only had the most positive intentions for sharing this with us.. :/ Those last two sentences were pretty brutal.

(21 Jul '13, 22:15) ikaruss21

Your right ikaruss, but I was answering a question posed by mormonboy. He did ask me how I feel. And I gave him a really honest answer. I think when you put your religion up on a post and encourage someone to read something and tell you what you think...well, your bound to get a metaphorical bloody nose. I have studied the religion to some extent and my answer is an honest one. Im sure mormonboy will soon develop his own religion and be free. I hope so.

(22 Jul '13, 03:15) Monty Riviera

I completely agree with's man made!

(22 Jul '13, 13:20) LeeAnn 1

Thank you for your honest comments. I am good with people being challenged by my assertion that the Book of Mormon is a true translation of an ancient record. But unless and until one is willing to take the time to read it then it seems rather, shall I say interesting, the intensity of the rejection. Where does that come from? You haven't even read it.

(22 Jul '13, 16:33) Mormonboy

My intense rejection comes from the fact that IM JESUS CHRIST! Im sick of people misrepresenting me. Im eager for people to realise who I AM. Go in peace Jesus, your post has stirred up some strong feelings, but hey , no ones perfect...or perhaps we all are.

(23 Jul '13, 03:25) Monty Riviera

To say that anyone's religious beliefs are a "joke" is very ignorant. Who are you to say someone else's beliefs are any less important than yours. My beliefs are sacred to me, as I'm sure yours are to you. I am stunned at the vitriol directed against my beliefs.

(23 Jul '13, 14:29) Mormonboy

Ok , listen Jesus, I didn't want to disrespect you personally. After all...your me. But I do disrespect the religion your touting. I think Jesus that your perfect,wonderful and without flaw. Your the essence of everything good and wholesome. Your my saviour, redeemer and myself. Your religion DISGUSTS me. You don't Jesus, your absolutely perfect. You are without fault in my sight.

(23 Jul '13, 15:12) Monty Riviera

@Mormonboy, I would have to agree with your last comment. You've apparently found a home in the Mormon church. Nothing wrong with that. Anyone who lives the life of a true, believing Mormon tends to be good people. But I also know that it doesn't take religion to be that kind of person. I have read and studied the BOM for many years. Taught Mormon doctrine on Sundays. It was my whole life. But now I know the doctrine is false and that Joseph lied about many things. That's why they killed him.

(23 Jul '13, 15:21) Rindor

people kill other out of ignorance. for any one that believe that killing is good. I will ask do you want to get killed? If that is the measure you use should it not apply to you also? Is that how you love the neighbor as yourself? Men will always take from someone and make it their own to praise them self. They will judge other to praise them self make division inequity. Yet they are all equal in this world they are all passer-by none will bring something physical from this world with-

(23 Jul '13, 23:22) white tiger

themselves. put your treasure where no moths comes to destroy. yet truth exist for those that have eyes to see and hears to ear. those that see only the flesh and the things of this world will not see. and for those who are wise is the cup more important then the water you put in it or is the water more important then the cup that holds the water. or is the shell of the egg more important then what is in it or is what in it more important then the shell? you can put many cup and many shell but-

(23 Jul '13, 23:36) white tiger

what is important? the one who thirst,the one who hungers and the one that want life know.

(23 Jul '13, 23:38) white tiger

Monty, Well did Isaiah speak,chap 53 - He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. And for the sake of any others who may read this - this is from the Book of Mormon - 15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.

(26 Jul '13, 01:11) Mormonboy

16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God. 17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil

(26 Jul '13, 01:12) Mormonboy

for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.

(26 Jul '13, 01:13) Mormonboy

19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.

(26 Jul '13, 01:14) Mormonboy
showing 2 of 19 show 17 more comments

I find Mormons very interesting. I'm interested in different beliefs and religions in general, but I find something especially interesting about Mormons. So I feel quite benevolent toward the LDS in general and this question in particular!

I don't believe that Mormon doctrine is really the correct order of things in the universe, but I also don't really think it matters, or that there's some other religion that has 100 out of 100 correct.

My working assumption is that Joseph Smith, like all prophets, was a human channel through which the Divine flowed very strongly for a period of time, and that he interpreted that wisdom through his human body and mind, and wrote down the closest match to that wisdom he was able to, given the constraints of his personality and era. I don't think that means that Joseph Smith didn't have lots of ordinary human foibles like the rest of us. And I'm certain that God's word filtered through ordinary human foibles can produce some sometimes wacky things. But it's clear that the information he channeled has been very compelling for many people, and that's fine with me.


answered 26 Jul '13, 18:12

corduroypower's gravatar image


Corduroypower, Thank you for commenting. I feel you have clinical approach. Look, we are just humans like everyone else. To a Mormon, we are all children of God. Spirit children clothed in a physical body. And prophets are God's messengers to reveal the plan of salvation to all of God's children. Amos 3:7. What has been revealed through the prophet Joseph Smith Jr. makes him the greatest prophet to ever live - except Jesus of course. And Jesus is more than a prophet - He is the Son of God.

(27 Jul '13, 01:26) Mormonboy

Great answer CP.

(28 Jul '13, 03:56) Catherine

I was at home, and there was a knock at my door. Two people stood there- a grandfather and his 10 year-old grandson. It was representatives of the Mormon Church, out on a blustery, cold Saturday, but determined to win my heart. I accepted the Book of Mormon they gave to me, mostly out of curiosity. But the older man was pushy, and would not stop talking and preaching and pressuring me. I finally had enough.

I addressed the young boy. I said to hum,"Keep your mind open, and really look ay the Doctrine and practices of your Church. I think it is full of false doctrine." The boy's eyes lit up, but the grandfather suddenly grabbed his grandson's mittened hand, and skedaddled!

I read the Book of Mormon, and I was really skeptical that it was truly inspired by the Holy Spirit. It just did not seem authentically from God. It seemed more like a book written by a man determined to have his way, and not God's. I am sorry, but the Church of Latter Day Saints has a lot of weird practices and beliefs that are hard to buy. @Mormonboy, you sound really brainwashed, and you are not going to convert anyone on Inward Quest. Do not use the site to force your beliefs onto us. You are literally doing your door-to-door work here, and you are going to have a tough time with this. The site is not for preaching. But I respect your Faith. You are to be commended for it. But do not preach here, okay?

I do know a true story that might interest you. There was a nun in Spain- I think her name was Mary of Bregna. She was also known as the "Blue Nun". She traveled spiritually the the Southwestern Native Americans, who saw her in visions. She preached the Gospel to them, and taught them, from Spain, about Jesus Christ. A new church was set up by a Brother of the Catholic Church. It was miles from the Indians. Mary instructed them to go on a trip, and to talk to the Brother, and tell him what they had learned from her about Jesus Christ. They did this, and to the Brother's amazement, presented themselves as Christians, and quoted the Bible, and spoke of the "Blue Nun" who came to them in their visions. I believe someone traveled to Spain to confirm that this Miracle was real, and interviewed Mary. She also had horrible visions about the torture of Jesus before he was crucified. Mel Gibson based his movie, The Passion of the Christ, in part on these visions, which were really bad, and never truly accepted as the Truth by the Catholic Church. I hope that I have this straight; I think I do.

Thought you might find this story interesting.




answered 21 Jul '13, 13:23

Jaianniah's gravatar image


edited 21 Jul '13, 13:39

I will avoid preaching at all costs. It's not my intention. I enjoy the back and forth. This topic seems to hit a hot button with people and I find that very interesting. I love the Book of Mormon. To me it contains the most sublime language about Jesus I have ever read. In addition to that it contains so many things that an uneducated early 19th century frontier boy could not have possibly known about Hebrew culture. But more that anything it's what it teaches about Jesus that moves me so.

(22 Jul '13, 16:59) Mormonboy

That the BOM has as you call it, sublime language, was Joseph's intention so it would sound ancient and convincing. How he learned it is from reading the Bible. In fact, there are whole sections that are copied almost word for word from the Bible. And it's Highly possible he knew a bit about the Hebrews too. It remains a controversy, but it's highly likely that he read a copy of "View of the Hebrews".

(23 Jul '13, 14:39) Rindor

Mormonboy, your post did hit a hot button with me, for so many reasons.

Yes, I have read the Book of Mormon as well as the Pearl of Great Price, D & C, etc. I investigated the Church back in the 90's.

During that time I also questioned how convenient revelations were coming forth through the years...the one about black priesthood, the one about abolishing plural marriage, and more. You know what I mean. The garment thing bothers I mentioned above. The Church itself selling things needed for the temple.....doesn't seem right. The lack of accountability or transparency for the huge amounts of money the church takes in. Leaders and revelators who were well known to be senile. While I was investigating, one of our dear friends died violently while wearing his protective garments (how could that happen?) and another Church member, highly ranked I will say, asked my then-husband to go out drinking with him. The Danites........the fact that Joseph Smith's own wife felt he was mentally ill....the underage plural brides? For such a young church there are many, many marks against it in History. This makes most people want to run the other way and I am glad I did. And to me, Joseph Smith was not a credible or moral person. These are my opinions on the LDS.

Still, all perspectives are welcome here at IQ and I am glad you felt comfortable with posting. I hope you will stay, and now that I have spoken my mind, the chip has fallen off my shoulder, I promise.


answered 23 Jul '13, 22:36

LeeAnn%201's gravatar image

LeeAnn 1

Here is some interesting stuff about Mormons including an interview with two elders.

This first video is an animated film of Mormon belief.

These next two are the actual papyrus Josph Smith believed to be the story of Abraham sacrificing his son. What it really is, is Anubis Egyptian God standing over Osirus at a Egyptian funeral rite.

This video is of interesting things Mormons that come to your door won't tell you about themselves.

These three are two Mormon elders being interviewed by a Christian that really knows his Bible. These two Mormons apparently don't. I do want to point out everyone is respectful in this, it is thought provoking.

I do want to point out that all of these are respectful, no one is yelling. These are just people peacefully communicating their sides.

There is a youtube video called, Mormons totally owned by Christian. I will not post that, it is disrespectful and a poor representation of a Christian. Thoughts of scripture should be peacefully exchanged.


answered 22 Jul '13, 00:56

Wade%20Casaldi's gravatar image

Wade Casaldi

edited 25 Jul '13, 09:37

@mormenboy If you take anything from this please understand that, you can't buy your way into heaven. Good works is a result of being saved, it will not save you. All fall short of the perfection needed for heaven. Jesus is the perfection, that is why he stands in for us at the judgment if we accept him. God bless you on your journey.

(22 Jul '13, 17:33) Wade Casaldi

@Rindor since you are the best auditory here on Mormonism, please go though my videos and see if there is anything incorrect or outright lies here. I only know what I found and it looks pretty authentic, especially the papyrus videos.

(22 Jul '13, 22:29) Wade Casaldi

Hey Wade, the animated video is basically correct with a few minor points I would clarify. But I did get a chuckle over the claim towards the end where it says the motivation to be worthy to go through the temple is the promise of endless celestial sex. Never heard it put that way before. LOL! But they do teach that as a god, the man can and should have many wives. Kind makes em sound like the Taliban with their 72 virgins, huh? LMAO!!!

(25 Jul '13, 02:04) Rindor

Thanks for taking your time to check these videos over for accuracy Rindor. Yes that does sounds similar.

(25 Jul '13, 09:48) Wade Casaldi
showing 2 of 4 show 2 more comments

The gospel of truth is joy to those who have received from the Father of truth the gift of knowing him by the power of the Logos, who has come from the Pleroma and who is in the thought and the mind of the Father; he it is who is called "the Savior," since that is the name of the work which he must do for the redemption of those who have not known the Father. For the name of the gospel is the manifestation of hope, since that is the discovery of those who seek him, because the All sought him from whom it had come forth. You see, the All had been inside of him, that illimitable, inconceivable one, who is better than every thought. This ignorance of the Father brought about terror and fear. And terror became dense like a fog, that no one was able to see. Because of this, error became strong. But it worked on its hylic substance vainly, because it did not know the truth. It was in a fashioned form while it was preparing, in power and in beauty, the equivalent of truth. This then, was not a humiliation for him, that illimitable, inconceivable one. For they were as nothing, this terror and this forgetfulness and this figure of falsehood, whereas this established truth is unchanging, unperturbed and completely beautiful.

For this reason, do not take error too seriously. Thus, since it had no root, it was in a fog as regards the Father, engaged in preparing works and forgetfulnesses and fears in order, by these means, to beguile those of the middle and to make them captive. The forgetfulness of error was not revealed. It did not become light beside the Father. Forgetfulness did not exist with the Father, although it existed because of him. What exists in him is knowledge, which was revealed so that forgetfulness might be destroyed and that they might know the Father, Since forgetfulness existed because they did not know the Father, if they then come to know the Father, from that moment on forgetfulness will cease to exist.

That is the gospel of him whom they seek, which he has revealed to the perfect through the mercies of the Father as the hidden mystery, Jesus the Christ. Through him he enlightened those who were in darkness because of forgetfulness. He enlightened them and gave them a path. And that path is the truth which he taught them. For this reason error was angry with him, so it persecuted him. It was distressed by him, so it made him powerless. He was nailed to a cross. He became a fruit of the knowledge of the Father. He did not, however, destroy them because they ate of it. He rather caused those who ate of it to be joyful because of this discovery.

And as for him, them he found in himself, and him they found in themselves, that illimitable, inconceivable one, that perfect Father who made the all, in whom the All is, and whom the All lacks, since he retained in himself their perfection, which he had not given to the all. The Father was not jealous. What jealousy, indeed, is there between him and his members? For, even if the Aeon had received their perfection, they would not have been able to approach the perfection of the Father, because he retained their perfection in himself, giving it to them as a way to return to him and as a knowledge unique in perfection. He is the one who set the All in order and in whom the All existed and whom the All lacked. As one of whom some have no knowledge, he desires that they know him and that they love him. For what is it that the All lacked, if not the knowledge of the Father?

He became a guide, quiet and in leisure. In the middle of a school he came and spoke the Word, as a teacher. Those who were wise in their own estimation came to put him to the test. But he discredited them as empty-headed people. They hated him because they really were not wise men. After all these came also the little children, those who possess the knowledge of the Father. When they became strong they were taught the aspects of the Father's face. They came to know and they were known. They were glorified and they gave glory. In their heart, the living book of the Living was manifest, the book which was written in the thought and in the mind of the Father and, from before the foundation of the All, is in that incomprehensible part of him.

This is the book which no one found possible to take, since it was reserved for him who will take it and be slain. No one was able to be manifest from those who believed in salvation as long as that book had not appeared. For this reason, the compassionate, faithful Jesus was patient in his sufferings until he took that book, since he knew that his death meant life for many. Just as in the case of a will which has not yet been opened, for the fortune of the deceased master of the house is hidden, so also in the case of the All which had been hidden as long as the Father of the All was invisible and unique in himself, in whom every space has its source. For this reason Jesus appeared. He took that book as his own. He was nailed to a cross. He affixed the edict of the Father to the cross.

Oh, such great teaching! He abases himself even unto death, though he is clothed in eternal life. Having divested himself of these perishable rags, he clothed himself in incorruptibility, which no one could possibly take from him. Having entered into the empty territory of fears, he passed before those who were stripped by forgetfulness, being both knowledge and perfection, proclaiming the things that are in the heart of the Father, so that he became the wisdom of those who have received instruction. But those who are to be taught, the living who are inscribed in the book of the living, learn for themselves, receiving instructions from the Father, turning to him again.

Since the perfection of the All is in the Father, it is necessary for the All to ascend to him. Therefore, if one has knowledge, he gets what belongs to him and draws it to himself. For he who is ignorant, is deficient, and it is a great deficiency, since he lacks that which will make him perfect. Since the perfection of the All is in the Father, it is necessary for the All to ascend to him and for each one to get the things which are his. He registered them first, having prepared them to be given to those who came from him.

Those whose name he knew first were called last, so that the one who has knowledge is he whose name the Father has pronounced. For he whose name has not been spoken is ignorant. Indeed, how shall one hear if his name has not been uttered? For he who remains ignorant until the end is a creature of forgetfulness and will perish with it. If this is not so, why have these wretches no name, why do they have no sound? Hence, if one has knowledge, he is from above. If he is called, he hears, he replies, and he turns toward him who called him and he ascends to him and he knows what he is called. Since he has knowledge, he does the will of him who called him. He desires to please him and he finds rest. He receives a certain name. He who thus is going to have knowledge knows whence he came and whither he is going. He knows it as a person who, having become intoxicated, has turned from his drunkenness and having come to himself, has restored what is his own.

He has turned many from error. He went before them to their own places, from which they departed when they erred because of the depth of him who surrounds every place, whereas there is nothing which surrounds him. It was a great wonder that they were in the Father without knowing him and that they were able to leave on their own, since they were not able to contain him and know him in whom they were, for indeed his will had not come forth from him. For he revealed it as a knowledge with which all its emanations agree, namely, the knowledge of the living book which he revealed to the Aeons at last as his letters, displaying to them that these are not merely vowels nor consonants, so that one may read them and think of something void of meaning; on the contrary, they are letters which convey the truth. They are pronounced only when they are known. Each letter is a perfect truth like a perfect book, for they are letters written by the hand of the unity, since the Father wrote them for the Aeons, so that they by means of his letters might come to know the Father.

While his wisdom mediates on the logos, and since his teaching expresses it, his knowledge has been revealed. His honor is a crown upon it. Since his joy agrees with it, his glory exalted it. It has revealed his image. It has obtained his rest. His love took bodily form around it. His trust embraced it. Thus the logos of the Father goes forth into the All, being the fruit of his heart and expression of his will. It supports the All. It chooses and also takes the form of the All, purifying it, and causing it to return to the Father and to the Mother, Jesus of the utmost sweetness. The Father opens his bosom, but his bosom is the Holy Spirit. He reveals his hidden self which is his son, so that through the compassion of the Father the Aeons may know him, end their wearying search for the Father and rest themselves in him, knowing that this is rest. After he had filled what was incomplete, he did away with form. The form of it is the world, that which it served. For where there is envy and strife, there is an incompleteness; but where there is unity, there is completeness. Since this incompleteness came about because they did not know the Father, so when they know the Father, incompleteness, from that moment on, will cease to exist. As one's ignorance disappears when he gains knowledge, and as darkness disappears when light appears, so also incompleteness is eliminated by completeness. Certainly, from that moment on, form is no longer manifest, but will be dissolved in fusion with unity. For now their works lie scattered. In time unity will make the spaces complete. By means of unity each one will understand itself. By means of knowledge it will purify itself of diversity with a view towards unity, devouring matter within itself like fire and darkness by light, death by life.

Certainly, if these things have happened to each one of us, it is fitting for us, surely, to think about the All so that the house may be holy and silent for unity. Like people who have moved from a neighborhood, if they have some dishes around which are not good, they usually break them. Nevertheless the householder does not suffer a loss, but rejoices, for in the place of these defective dishes there are those which are completely perfect. For this is the judgement which has come from above and which has judged every person, a drawn two-edged sword cutting on this side and that. When it appeared, I mean, the Logos, who is in the heart of those who pronounce it - it was not merely a sound but it has become a body - a great disturbance occurred among the dishes, for some were emptied, others filled: some were provided for, others were removed; some were purified, still others were broken. All the spaces were shaken and disturbed for they had no composure nor stability. Error was disturbed not knowing what it should do. It was troubled; it lamented, it was beside itself because it did not know anything. When knowledge, which is its abolishment, approached it with all its emanations, error is empty, since there is nothing in it. Truth appeared; all its emanations recognized it. They actually greeted the Father with a power which is complete and which joins them with the Father. For each one loves truth because truth is the mouth of the Father. His tongue is the Holy Spirit, who joins him to truth attaching him to the mouth of the Father by his tongue at the time he shall receive the Holy Spirit.

This is the manifestation of the Father and his revelation to his Aeons. He revealed his hidden self and explained it. For who is it who exists if it is not the Father himself? All the spaces are his emanations. They knew that they stem from him as children from a perfect man. They knew that they had not yet received form nor had they yet received a name, every one of which the Father produces. If they at that time receive form of his knowledge, though they are truly in him, they do not know him. But the Father is perfect. He knows every space which is within him. If he pleases, he reveals anyone whom he desires by giving him a form and by giving him a name; and he does give him a name and cause him to come into being. Those who do not yet exist are ignorant of him who created them. I do not say, then, that those who do not yet exist are nothing. But they are in him who will desire that they exist when he pleases, like the event which is going to happen. On the one hand, he knows, before anything is revealed, what he will produce. On the other hand, the fruit which has not yet been revealed does not know anything, nor is it anything either. Thus each space which, on its part, is in the Father comes from the existent one, who, on his part, has established it from the nonexistent. [...] he who does not exist at all, will never exist.

What, then, is that which he wants him to think? "I am like the shadows and phantoms of the night." When morning comes, this one knows that the fear which he had experienced was nothing. Thus they were ignorant of the Father; he is the one whom they did not see. Since there had been fear and confusion and a lack of confidence and doublemindness and division, there were many illusions which were conceived by him, the foregoing, as well as empty ignorance - as if they were fast asleep and found themselves a prey to troubled dreams. Either there is a place to which they flee, or they lack strength as they come, having pursued unspecified things. Either they are involved in inflicting blows, or they themselves receive bruises. Either they are falling from high places, or they fly off through the air, though they have no wings at all. Other times, it is as if certain people were trying to kill them, even though there is no one pursuing them; or, they themselves are killing those beside them, for they are stained by their blood. Until the moment when they who are passing through all these things - I mean they who have experienced all these confusions - awake, they see nothing because the dreams were nothing. It is thus that they who cast ignorance from them as sheep do not consider it to be anything, nor regard its properties to be something real, but they renounce them like a dream in the night and they consider the knowledge of the Father to be the dawn. It is thus that each one has acted, as if he were asleep, during the time when he was ignorant and thus he comes to understand, as if he were awakening. And happy is the man who comes to himself and awakens. Indeed, blessed is he who has opened the eyes of the blind.

And the Spirit came to him in haste when it raised him. Having given its hand to the one lying prone on the ground, it placed him firmly on his feet, for he had not yet stood up. He gave them the means of knowing the knowledge of the Father and the revelation of his son. For when they saw it and listened to it, he permitted them to take a taste of and to smell and to grasp the beloved son.

He appeared, informing them of the Father, the illimitable one. He inspired them with that which is in the mind, while doing his will. Many received the light and turned towards him. But material men were alien to him and did not discern his appearance nor recognize him. For he came in the likeness of flesh and nothing blocked his way because it was incorruptible and unrestrainable. Moreover, while saying new things, speaking about what is in the heart of the Father, he proclaimed the faultless word. Light spoke through his mouth, and his voice brought forth life. He gave them thought and understanding and mercy and salvation and the Spirit of strength derived from the limitlessness of the Father and sweetness. He caused punishments and scourgings to cease, for it was they which caused many in need of mercy to astray from him in error and in chains - and he mightily destroyed them and derided them with knowledge. He became a path for those who went astray and knowledge to those who were ignorant, a discovery for those who sought, and a support for those who tremble, a purity for those who were defiled.

He is the shepherd who left behind the ninety-nine sheep which had not strayed and went in search of that one which was lost. He rejoiced when he had found it. For ninety-nine is a number of the left hand, which holds it. The moment he finds the one, however, the whole number is transferred to the right hand. Thus it is with him who lacks the one, that is, the entire right hand which attracts that in which it is deficient, seizes it from the left side and transfers it to the right. In this way, then, the number becomes one hundred. This number signifies the Father.

He labored even on the Sabbath for the sheep which he found fallen into the pit. He saved the life of that sheep, bringing it up from the pit in order that you may understand fully what that Sabbath is, you who possess full understanding. It is a day in which it is not fitting that salvation be idle, so that you may speak of that heavenly day which has no night and of the sun which does not set because it is perfect. Say then in your heart that you are this perfect day and that in you the light which does not fail dwells.

Speak concerning the truth to those who seek it and of knowledge to those who, in their error, have committed sin. Make sure-footed those who stumble and stretch forth your hands to the sick. Nourish the hungry and set at ease those who are troubled. Foster men who love. Raise up and awaken those who sleep. For you are this understanding which encourages. If the strong follow this course, they are even stronger. Turn your attention to yourselves. Do not be concerned with other things, namely, that which you have cast forth from yourselves, that which you have dismissed. Do not return to them to eat them. Do not be moth-eaten. Do not be worm-eaten, for you have already shaken it off. Do not be a place of the devil, for you have already destroyed him. Do not strengthen your last obstacles, because that is reprehensible. For the lawless one is nothing. He harms himself more than the law. For that one does his works because he is a lawless person. But this one, because he is a righteous person, does his works among others. Do the will of the Father, then, for you are from him.

For the Father is sweet and his will is good. He knows the things that are yours, so that you may rest yourselves in them. For by the fruits one knows the things that are yours, that they are the children of the Father, and one knows his aroma, that you originate from the grace of his countenance. For this reason, the Father loved his aroma; and it manifests itself in every place; and when it is mixed with matter, he gives his aroma to the light; and into his rest he causes it to ascend in every form and in every sound. For there are no nostrils which smell the aroma, but it is the Spirit which possesses the sense of smell and it draws it for itself to itself and sinks into the aroma of the Father. He is, indeed, the place for it, and he takes it to the place from which it has come, in the first aroma which is cold. It is something in a psychic form, resembling cold water which is [...] since it is in soil which is not hard, of which those who see it think, "It is earth." Afterwards, it becomes soft again. If a breath is taken, it is usually hot. The cold aromas, then, are from the division. For this reason, God came and destroyed the division and he brought the hot Pleroma of love, so that the cold may not return, but the unity of the Perfect Thought prevail.

This is the word of the Gospel of the finding of the Pleroma for those who wait for the salvation which comes from above. When their hope, for which they are waiting, is waiting - they whose likeness is the light in which there is no shadow, then at that time the Pleroma is about to come. The deficiency of matter, however, is not because of the limitlessness of the Father who comes at the time of the deficiency. And yet no one is able to say that the incorruptible One will come in this manner. But the depth of the Father is increasing, and the thought of error is not with him. It is a matter of falling down and a matter of being readily set upright at the finding of that one who has come to him who will turn back.

For this turning back is called "repentance". For this reason, incorruption has breathed. It followed him who has sinned in order that he may find rest. For forgiveness is that which remains for the light in the deficiency, the word of the pleroma. For the physician hurries to the place in which there is sickness, because that is the desire which he has. The sick man is in a deficient condition, but he does not hide himself because the physician possesses that which he lacks. In this manner the deficiency is filled by the Pleroma, which has no deficiency, which has given itself out in order to fill the one who is deficient, so that grace may take him, then, from the area which is deficient and has no grace. Because of this a diminishing occurred in the place which there is no grace, the area where the one who is small, who is deficient, is taken hold of.

He revealed himself as a Pleroma, i.e., the finding of the light of truth which has shined towards him, because he is unchangeable. For this reason, they who have been troubled speak about Christ in their midst so that they may receive a return and he may anoint them with the ointment. The ointment is the pity of the Father, who will have mercy on them. But those whom he has anointed are those who are perfect. For the filled vessels are those which are customarily used for anointing. But when an anointing is finished, the vessel is usually empty, and the cause of its deficiency is the consumption of its ointment. For then a breath is drawn only through the power which he has. But the one who is without deficiency - one does not trust anyone beside him nor does one pour anything out. But that which is the deficient is filled again by the perfect Father. He is good. He knows his plantings because he is the one who has planted them in his Paradise. And his Paradise is his place of rest.

This is the perfection in the thought of the Father and these are the words of his reflection. Each one of his words is the work of his will alone, in the revelation of his Logos. Since they were in the depth of his mind, the Logos, who was the first to come forth, caused them to appear, along with an intellect which speaks the unique word by means of a silent grace. It was called "thought," since they were in it before becoming manifest. It happened, then, that it was the first to come forth - at the moment pleasing to the will of him who desired it; and it is in the will that the Father is at rest and with which he is pleased. Nothing happens without him, nor does anything occur without the will of the Father. But his will is incomprehensible. His will is his mark, but no one can know it, nor is it possible for them to concentrate on it in order to possess it. But that which he wishes takes place at the moment he wishes it - even if the view does not please anyone: it is God`s will. For the Father knows the beginning of them all as well as their end. For when their end arrives, he will question them to their faces. The end, you see, is the recognition of him who is hidden, that is, the Father, from whom the beginning came forth and to whom will return all who have come from him. For they were made manifest for the glory and the joy of his name.

And the name of the Father is the Son. It is he who, in the beginning, gave a name to him who came forth from him - he is the same one - and he begat him for a son. He gave him his name which belonged to him - he, the Father, who possesses everything which exists around him. He possess the name; he has the son. It is possible for them to see him. The name, however, is invisible, for it alone is the mystery of the invisible about to come to ears completely filled with it through the Father`s agency. Moreover, as for the Father, his name is not pronounced, but it is revealed through a son. Thus, then, the name is great.

Who, then, has been able to pronounce a name for him, this great name, except him alone to whom the name belongs and the sons of the name in whom the name of the Father is at rest, and who themselves in turn are at rest in his name, since the Father has no beginning? It is he alone who engendered it for himself as a name in the beginning before he had created the Aeons, that the name of the Father should be over their heads as a lord - that is, the real name, which is secure by his authority and by his perfect power. For the name is not drawn from lexicons nor is his name derived from common name-giving, But it is invisible. He gave a name to himself alone, because he alone saw it and because he alone was capable of giving himself a name. For he who does not exist has no name. For what name would one give him who did not exist? Nevertheless, he who exists also with his name and he alone knows it, and to him alone the Father gave a name. The Son is his name. He did not, therefore, keep it secretly hidden, but the son came into existence. He himself gave a name to him. The name, then, is that of the Father, just as the name of the Father is the Son. For otherwise, where would compassion find a name - outside of the Father? But someone will probably say to his companion, "Who would give a name to someone who existed before himself, as if, indeed, children did not receive their name from one of those who gave them birth?"

Above all, then, it is fitting for us to think this point over: What is the name? It is the real name. It is, indeed, the name which came from the Father, for it is he who owns the name. He did not, you see, get the name on loan, as in the case of others because of the form in which each one of them is going to be created. This, then, is the authoritative name. There is no one else to whom he has given it. But it remained unnamed, unuttered, `till the moment when he, who is perfect, pronounced it himself; and it was he alone who was able to pronounce his name and to see it. When it pleased him, then, that his son should be his pronounced name and when he gave this name to him, he who has come from the depth spoke of his secrets, because he knew that the Father was absolute goodness. For this reason, indeed, he sent this particular one in order that he might speak concerning the place and his place of rest from which he had come forth, and that he might glorify the Pleroma, the greatness of his name and the sweetness of his Father.

Each one will speak concerning the place from which he has come forth, and to the region from which he received his essential being, he will hasten to return once again. And he want from that place - the place where he was - because he tasted of that place, as he was nourished and grew. And his own place of rest is his Pleroma. All the emanations from the Father, therefore, are Pleromas, and all his emanations have their roots in the one who caused them all to grow from himself. He appointed a limit. They, then, became manifest individually in order that they might be in their own thought, for that place to which they extend their thoughts is their root, which lifts them upward through all heights to the Father. They reach his head, which is rest for them, and they remain there near to it so that they say that they have participated in his face by means of embraces. But these of this kind were not manifest, because they have not risen above themselves. Neither have they been deprived of the glory of the Father nor have they thought of him as small, nor bitter, nor angry, but as absolutely good, unperturbed, sweet, knowing all the spaces before they came into existence and having no need of instruction. Such are they who possess from above something of this immeasurable greatness, as they strain towards that unique and perfect one who exists there for them. And they do not go down to Hades. They have neither envy nor moaning, nor is death in them. But they rest in him who rests, without wearying themselves or becoming involved in the search for truth. But, they, indeed, are the truth, and the Father is in them, and they are in the Father, since they are perfect, inseparable from him who is truly good. They lack nothing in any way, but they are given rest and are refreshed by the Spirit. And they listen to their root; they have leisure for themselves, they in whom he will find his root, and he will suffer no loss to his soul.

Such is the place of the blessed; this is their place. As for the rest, then, may they know, in their place, that it does not suit me, after having been in the place of rest to say anything more. But he is the one in whom I shall be in order to devote myself, at all times, to the Father of the All and the true brothers, those upon whom the love of the Father is lavished, and in whose midst nothing of him is lacking. It is they who manifest themselves truly since they are in that true and eternal life and speak of the perfect light filled with the seed of the Father, and which is in his heart and in the Pleroma, while his Spirit rejoices in it and glorifies him in whom it was, because the Father is good. And his children are perfect and worthy of his name, because he is the Father. Children of this kind are those whom he loves.

You are not in darkness any more.

Find a place of rest before you become a carcass. clean the inside of the cup with pure water, until there is nothing false in you, let the light(spirit) that you are guide you in to all truth, overcome and go above.

Let there be light be the light that you can be experience and enjoy.


answered 25 Jul '13, 19:04

white%20tiger's gravatar image

white tiger

edited 25 Jul '13, 19:22


@white tiger - A plus one for you, sir! My hat is off to you.

(27 Jul '13, 01:36) lozenge123

What can you see when you look on the outside at the water that is pure and peaceful in the light? Do you see a perfect image? it should be the same inside. I have given you some of my water. clean the inside of the cup.

(27 Jul '13, 10:42) white tiger

Do not think that I have said those words to judge you or praise my self. you might not yet see, Behold I have put an open door before you that no man can shut. Get out of your boat and walk on your own water. O you of little faith.

(28 Jul '13, 02:07) white tiger
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