I had a look at the Bashar website today and came across this 'message from Darryl'

And, I have to say, it makes me feel uneasy listening to it.

In case the message is taken down in future, I'll briefly summarize it...

Darryl Anka, who channels Bashar, is basically asking for those who have posted Bashar material for free on YouTube, Facebook and other online sites to stop doing so because otherwise people may not buy material from the Bashar website. Failure to do this may mean that Mr Anka (and Bashar Communications) may not have the funds to continue the expansion, promotion and preservation of the Bashar material through various projects so he wishes the copyright laws to be adhered to.

I can understand the human-based (and legal-based) perspective of Mr Anka in posting that message but it does make me feel uncomfortable to listen to it.

While I personally can accept the difference between a channeler's own application of the material they channel and the material itself, it seems to me to be a little self-defeating as far as the promotion of the message of abundance is concerned.

It seems to me that someone visiting the site might get the idea that if the guy channeling Bashar can't apply the knowledge to manifest abundance, then how it is going to work for anyone else?

Contrast that message with that of Esther Hicks who channels Abraham. Both Esther and her husband Jerry are multi-millionaires - and still growing rapidly in wealth. And Jerry (according to Abraham) has often tried to promote the knowledge for free but has found that when people are not ready to hear the message, there's nothing you can do to make them hear it, and also many people will not give as much credence to free material as for material they have paid for.

Abraham have even implied on occasion that Jerry & Esther Hicks themselves, despite their apparent wealth, don't even apply the material that well - somewhere over 50 percent I think they've once hinted at.

I've never heard Jerry & Esther Hicks - or even Abraham - ever make an issue over people posting their information for free. The most I have ever heard from Abraham on the subject is that Jerry & Esther only ever ask that people provide a link to where the material originated from (i.e. Abraham) so that those who are interested can gain access to the source material.

Having been an Abraham fanatic since the mid-90s, but having only started studying Bashar seriously within the past year or so, I guess I'm feeling the difference in attitudes to abundance-thinking more starkly than most.

But I am still left with the thought that Mr Anka's message is not helpful to his cause.

Hence my question...

Are people really ready to accept the difference between a channeler who perceives 'lack' and their channeled information that promotes 'abundance'?


I think I should probably clarify my question a bit since it appears that I'm questioning whether Darryl Anka should be charging for his material but actually that's not what I'm asking :)

I'm fully in favor of Mr Anka charging whatever he likes. He's providing a valuable service. If someone wishes to channel Bashar, they can freely do so themselves, as I believe one particular lady in Japan is already doing.

Mr Anka is completely entitled to compensation of his choosing (financial or otherwise) for his skill and effort in bringing the message forth.

What my question is actually about, and I've phrased it clumsily I think, is this...and I'll explain in the form of an example...

Let's say my next door neighbours are very noisy and it is annoying me.

Now if I had no understanding of the Law of Attraction, I might push back against them by calling the police, or banging on their door and arguing with them.

The problem with doing that is that I've now given more focus and energy to something I don't want so that, even if my neighbours comply with my request, I'm now set up (because of the operation of the Law of Attraction) to rendezvous in future with more people and situations who aggravate the emotion that the noise-nuisance had already stirred up within me.

Whenever I push against something, I will attract more of what I don't want even if I believe I am right in pushing against it. See Why Do You Need To Be Right?

In this case, most people (including myself) would probably agree Mr Anka is right in drawing attention to this however what I'm feeling uneasy about is that, with his knowledge of the operations of the Law of Attraction, he must realize that this pushing against is only going to attract more of what he doesn't want.

That's what I mean by self-defeating.

Of course, this form of action could conceivably be the direction of the path of joy / excitement for him (especially if he is currently in depression / insecurity / despair etc on the emotional scale regarding this) - and maybe that is how he is feeling about it - though it doesn't seem like that on the surface.

asked 18 Jul '10, 14:31

Stingray's gravatar image


edited 08 Aug '12, 11:36

Kathleen%20Kelly's gravatar image

Kathleen Kelly ♦♦

I don't really know enough about Bashar but I think my answer to this question - http://www.inwardquest.com/questions/5485/should-you-listen-to-a-teacher-who-doesnt-live-their-teachings - would probably be similar.

(18 Jul '10, 19:39) Michaela

Mmm, yes I noticed this message on the Bashar website as well. I found it quite amusing. I will comment later today when I have a little more time.

(19 Jul '10, 21:39) Vesuvius

If this issue has been aroused maybe that was the meaning of the message in the first place.. Even If it was unconscious on Darryls and his staff part it doesn't matter because the discussion is here, that's a fact. Many more people have questions like this regarding "channeled" information and that can give them an opoturnity to deal with it in any way they desire. I peronally got past that point when it matters to me what others say or do, so I see that message ONLY as a mirror and nothing else. Everyone will get what they need from it and even being firm in knowing you don't care about..

(22 Jul '10, 11:52) wildlife

..where the message comes from (only the content) is a grat service too. On the other hand we are evolving and everyone is in there own path and in different place and so what if the message that Anka is channeling is the same as he started doing it 25 or 30 years ago? Wasn't he a different person then? And won't he be a different person in the next 5, 10 and 20 years? I feel that focusing on YOUR emotions and YOUR responses is enough to live a happy, exciting and fulfilled life. Just chillax and if you got past money beliefs (which are very strong), good for you. Let All deal with it themselv

(22 Jul '10, 11:56) wildlife

Jesus never asked for money for the Bible...

(08 Aug '12, 16:02) Wade Casaldi
showing 1 of 5 show 4 more comments

Hey Stingray,

We go some time back and you know how I feel about Bashar and his material. In fact most of my "philosophy" on life comes from him only because it is the simplest and easiest to apply and understand, at least for me.

I believe that following your excitement at any given moment is the quickest and surest way to get you where you need to go and fulfill your life's purpose. As I'm putting this "philosophy" into use more and more I find out that IT WORKS and because of that I'm doing it even more eagirly.

So I for once have started on this self-improvement path over 3 years aog and when I started out I NEVER payed any money for any of the material I have used. Most of them I gathered from the Internet with the intent that if I find something that dramaticly changed my life than I would by a legal copy of that product.

Over the years I bought such stuff but in vague percentage of the stuff I used. Maybe 1% was payed for and the rest was downloaded from the Internet.

So am I a leech? Am I someone who doesn't care about those people who really put in a lot of work and effort to gather information and spread "the good news" to anyone who is willing to hear that?

I guess you can have definitions that say "Yes" and that's perfectly fine with me. I'm not gonna argue with anyone that what I was and am doing is right and perfect. I just want to give you my perspective on this topic.

So what my beliefs are is that ANY knowledge is FREE and you can't put a price on it. From various places that I studied (channelings, metaphysical books and seminars and so on) different entities that are more evolved than humans say it loud and clearly (and I know Bashar says it also) - There is NO copyright in the Universe! Copyright, as well as money, is stricly a human creation and it belongs in our realm of understanding of what knowledge is and how it can and should be used.

Now I'm not going to go into a debate with anyone about this. I did my share in giving back the energy that I felt I have gathered from others. About nine months ago I have written a book, created a website and put it on the Web for ANYONE who is willing to read it. I have than made an attempt to popularize it by posting links on many websites that I was previously associated with (this one included), and after a week of such an "agressive" campaign got some feedback about it and decided to drop it. It wasn't from the feelings of fear or anything like that; the excitement of spreading it was gone and I knew I could move on to other things in my life.

And so I did. So my way of "paying" back for all the "free" material that I have gottan from others, for there hard work and sacrifice, was to put my life out there for everyone to read and experience and I believe that I have paid my dues with interest for all the material that I used.

I know I'm writing about myself here and not necessarily the topic but I want you to tell you that MOST of the spiritual teachers today DO NOT LIVE THERE TEACHINGS. How do I know that? Because I have observed them and the way they behave, talk and interact with people and I KNOW for a fact that this is so.

How do I know that? Because that's who I am - a social engineer, an Observer and an Interpreter of reality and that's what I do. And I found that thanks to ALL of these teachers, channelers, fairies, ascended masters, dwarfs, unicorns, angels, Spirits and so on. I am where I am today thanks to every and each one of You that are reading this and also thanks to those teachers that are almost there, but still don't want to go "all the way".

Now what I'm doing in my life is that I'm going all the way, and I really mean ALL THE WAY. I'm literally following my excitement at any given moment to the best of my ability and that brings few things with that.

I don't plan AT ALL for what might happen. Sure, sometimes I feel that this might happen or that, but if it doesn't come to pass so be it. I accept it and try to get as much out of it as possible.

I don't have a steady job and that is a CHOICE. It doesn't mean I'm a bumb either, but it means I've changed my definition of abundance and that's what it is right now.

Abundance - ability to do what you need to do when you need to do it. Period.

As long as I can do that I feel abundant.

I don't care how people look at me or say that I'm crazy. Why? Because I have my eye on the ball. I'm looking into the future and I'm seeing humanity a perfect beings with so much to offer that it takes my breath away. So in order to show that to people I will do WHATEVER IT TAKES to show them that on MY OWN EXAMPLE. I won't leave ANY stone unturned until I find out EVERYTHING that there is to know about who I really am (or am not), and I know that this task will NEVER be fully accomplished.

So what to do about people who still have more authority than others, for examples spiritual teachers that have been on this self-improvement path for the duration of 10 times longer than I have? NOTHING! Let them be. Let them figure it out for themselves! You don't have to worry about ANYONE but Yourself.

What I mean is that you can not force anyone else to change nor can you save the world. Why? Because the world doesn't need saving! The world is perfect the way it is and everything on it is playing it's part perfectly. With that attitude in mind there is nothing that can bring you out of balance anymore.

So what if anything does bring you out of balance, for example spiritual teachers who don't walk the talk? See how it makes you feel, what reactions does it invoke in you? Why are you scared, angry or dissatisfeid with them and what are you going to do about it?

What I'm doing is that I'm thanking EVERYONE who pushes my buttons because they are the ones form whom I can learn the most about myself. To tell you the truth once you are in this state of being as I am (no self-pity and no self-importance) it's harder and harder to find teachers. I don't mean that I don't learn everyday but the ones that are MOST beneficial in our growth are the ones that Carlos Castaneda called Tyrants - those who make our lives so miserable that we almost want to take them away form us. So when you find someone like that you should be rejoyced and thankful for that they are here to mirror to you places of your responsibility.

So what can you do with thoser people? See them as yourself and send them the MOST love you can. And that's what I will do to. I will write Mr. Anka an email saying how much I apprecieate his work that he has been doing and how much this material has changed my life and still promise him, that until I will be able too, until I have a breath in my body and working internet link I WILL upload ALL of the Bashar material I can find because I believe it is one of the most wonderful blessings for human beings right now and that this material will change the world, just as it changed me.

I owe him that even though I know I don't owe him at all. Still it feels exciting right at this moment than so be it.

And for everyone who wants to turn this message into a discussion, saying that "Oh, you can't do that right here" or "The things you say don't work that way", save your breath. As long as I'm concerned you are free to believe whatever you want and you can do whatever you like with this information and your life.

So stay centered, be at peace and always changing..

PS. As I watched Darryls' message it sounds fair, not fear-based or neediness.. it doesn't contradict Bashar's teachings and is mature and honest in my estimation.


answered 18 Jul '10, 16:49

wildlife's gravatar image


edited 18 Jul '10, 16:56

@Wildlife - thanks for providing an interesting and thought-provoking perspective. I didn't mean to imply that Mr Anka's message was unfair. But it still does seem strange to me that someone who channels information based around The Law of Attraction - or as Bashar puts it "What you give out is what you get back" - would give out a message like this and give it more attention in his life...and thereby ensure he gets back more of what he doesn't want. It's not intended as a critcism of Mr Anka, who I think channels some spectacular information, more of an observation actually.

(18 Jul '10, 19:40) Stingray

@Stingray - I'm curious? - If what you were asking was merely an observation then why did you feel uneasy listening to it?

(18 Jul '10, 21:16) Michaela

@Michaela - you can (and do) have an emotional response to anything you give your attention to...even a lack of noticeable emotion is still a response. Are you suggesting I should not have any emotional response? In my case, it doesn't feel comfortable to me to have someone associated with knowledge relating to the Law of Attraction activating a vibration of something I presume they don't want. But I'm not going to lose any sleep over it or make it the main focus of my life, so I just call it an observation...something I noticed in passing and thought of highlighting on this website :)

(18 Jul '10, 22:24) Stingray

@Stingray - I apologize if I touched a nerve, I wasn't suggesting that you shouldn't have an emotional response - you know you're freely entitled to have any kind of response you want. I was genuinely curious because I thought you stating that it was merely an observation but that it made you feel uneasy just seemed a little bit of a contradiction to me. Thanks for clarifying :)

(18 Jul '10, 23:27) Michaela

@Stingray - When Bashar says what you put out is what you get back, he's referring to the aggregated vibration of one's being. In that sense it doesn't necessarily follow that he's focused on a lack perspective. Think about his message that you’re referring to and how it prompted you to write a lengthy question and the issues it raised in you. And the benefit that this discussion may have for anyone reading it. As an observation, I could say that two people who’ve helped me, Esther Hicks and Joe Vitale are both overweight, but their fundamental messages are intact.

(19 Jul '10, 02:23) Eddie

@Wildlife - I like that you've discovered you're a social engineer. Did that realization come from your higher self? Recently I had the realization that I'm a communications technician and that fits perfectly with the jobs and work I've been involved in for most of my life, I love it :-) And I had what Carlos Castaneda called a petty tyrant in my life for eight and a half years. Through that interaction I discovered that my ego was still intact, even though at that time I thought I was free of my ego. The mirror has no way of lying 8-)

(19 Jul '10, 02:33) Eddie

@Michaela - no touching of nerves at all and no need to apologize for anything. I think sometimes the limited space in these comments can force one to reply in a more abrupt fashion than is intended so I apologize if my comment came across a bit sharply :)

(19 Jul '10, 03:43) Stingray

@Eddie - I've been through many hours of Bashar's material now. My main focus has been finding inconsistencies between Bashar and Abraham on manifesting and belief change and, despite going through recordings dealing with those subjects multiple times, I haven't found any inconsistencies. The language, examples and techniques are different but nothing else is as far as I can see. If you're saying that Bashar's Law of Attraction only applies to aggregated vibration, that would be a major difference in my view and I'd appreciate a reference to the recording this is stated in. Thanks :)

(19 Jul '10, 03:48) Stingray

@Eddie - The social engineer thing is just a label for a matter of convienience, but it's not what defiens me. I do many things like Lomi Lomi massage, writing, speaking but when someone asks me what I do I say - I DO massages, I write, I speak, I don't eat meat.. I'm not a massouer, writer, speaker, vegetarian.. I'm just a guy who CHOOSES to do all those things, but still isn't any one of them. I just wanted to clarify it for rarely using any labels for myself and just looking at my life way back (watching a lot of movies and writing a book etc.) brought me to that conclusion.

(19 Jul '10, 06:06) wildlife

@Stingray - The only inconsistencies I've found is that Abraham focuses on and states that only LOA is worth talking about, while Bashar talks of the 4 Universal laws. I'll see if I can find the material with Bashar discussing vibration. I'm a bit confused when you say aggregated vibration would be a major difference in your view. After hearing Abraham discussing vibration, it soon became clear to me that the mirror reflects back to us the total mix of the vibrational output of our being. Abraham & Bashar express this in different language, but I don't see a difference in meaning.

(20 Jul '10, 09:54) Eddie

@Wildlife - Yes, I'll always be the first to agree not to get caught up in labels. Still, at our current level of evolution we need them for the purpose of communication, do we not? My question was fairly simple and directed at the highest level of your being...

(20 Jul '10, 10:04) Eddie

@Eddie - if you look at Bashar's 4 Laws of Creation (http://www.youaretrulyloved.com/enlightenment/the-4-laws-of-creation/), the only one you can practically use is still The Law of Attraction...the rest provide a framework. Regarding aggregate vibration, The Law of Attraction responds to individual thoughts only. Speaking casually (as I sometimes do) you can talk about that person's mood or attitude...but it really isn't that...it's individual points of focus (thoughts) only. Otherwise how would Focus Blocks or many Abraham processes that deal with specific subjects work?

(20 Jul '10, 21:15) Stingray

@Stingray - in that vid he mentions vibration @1.03, he doesn't mention thoughts, but it's the same thing: energy-vibration-thought. I don't think we're at cross purposes in this understanding. Previously my life was working in all except two areas, now I'm only working on one area until such time that my vibrational mix (aggregate) is 100% where I want it to be. I've never been attracted to the focus blocks method, but I know you've Mastered it and hence can assist others.

(21 Jul '10, 03:10) Eddie

@Stingray: You may not agree with vibrations in the aggregate, but you must surely agree with the idea of blended manifestations, which you've discussed before.

(22 Jul '10, 14:47) Vesuvius
showing 2 of 14 show 12 more comments

On a number of occasions, in various groups on the internet, I have seen the question asked, "If you knew that a channeller was not really channelling, but was just faking it, would it matter to you?" And the answer from the faithful is always, "Not if the information they are providing is good. Not if I feel good about what he is saying." I find that attitude incomprehensible, and conclude that people who answer that way are really just side-stepping the question.

It comes down to this: Do you expect your guru to have integrity? Would you rather learn from someone who is walking their talk? Or are you perfectly fine with accepting guidance from someone who is just parroting someone else's ideas?

The moral relativist will say, "Well, Stingray, you're just passing judgement; it is your interpretation of the conditions under which Bashar runs his business, your perspective, not any absolute morality that is being violated." Yet you feel what you do; that this is somehow hinky. Can't say that I blame you. Would you consider the same treatment from your friends acceptable?

Nevertheless, I'm inclined to agree with Eddie. Bashar's request for people to stop giving away his stuff for free needs to be examined from a larger LOA perspective. It is Bashar's vibrations in the aggregate that produce the results he is after, not any one business decision. And if his business model is based on the idea of selling his guidance, it won't work if people give away his materials for free.

I could see why someone might find his request inconsistent with the idea of an abundant universe. Surely information should be free and unencumbered by monetary considerations. But if Bashar provides a valuable service, shouldn't he have the right to charge money for his materials? Does he not have the right to decide how those materials get distributed? If people find Bashar's material valuable, shouldn't they be willing to pay a small sum for it? And if they don't like the idea that Bashar isn't giving away his materials for free, don't they always have the right to refuse his services?

If a person needs money to find his guru, I would imagine that it wouldn't be that difficult to attract the money to do so. In my experience, when a person cannot obtain the financial means to achieve something (including the obtaining of materials from Bashar), it means that the situation they are currently in holds a life lesson for them, and that life lesson will be more valuable to them (in that place where they are now) than any Bashar CD could be.

By the way, the information I provide on this website is not free either; my time is not worthless. Although I do not get paid, I do have selfish motives for participating. I like writing. I like sharing my perspective, and bouncing my ideas off the ideas of others. And even though I do give these thoughts freely, I would indeed be upset if someone copied these paragraphs to another site, and claimed them as their own.

Which is essentially what people do when they post Bashar's materials on the internet for others to freely take.


answered 20 Jul '10, 04:50

Vesuvius's gravatar image


edited 20 Jul '10, 15:06

Hi Vesuvius. As I've said before, I really appreciate the perspectives of the users on this site, including yours. The way I see it is there are no gurus, but each of us are both teachers and students and we'll meet when we're ready. If someone calls or labels a teacher or Master a guru, then there's confusion in the labeller. If said teacher or Master acknowledges and believes that they're a guru, then they probably have more work to do on their self.

(20 Jul '10, 10:18) Eddie

I have learned a lot from Jesus Christ and Gandi, whose messages came to me for free. But also from Earlyne Cheney, Jose Silva, and "Abraham" who messages came to me through my paying for their books and/or CD's. One message I paid a LOT for was a Tony Robbins seminar a few years ago, and sure, it delivered a lot of drama and useful material.

It does feel distasteful when a spiritual type of message is charged for. Why? That's just the perception most of us have....that spiritual messages should be free, and that the person delivering the messages should be able to live what they preach and not even need to ask for money. It seems the universe should take care of such people nicely and without their having to bring money-making into the issue. It seems to cheapen their message or make it seem like they aren't really so blessed if they have to ask. Or perhaps they are just doing what they do, for the money. All of these questions come into the minds of most of us when charged money for spiritual information. But here is something to think about if you will....

Someone very close to me is a Native American, and his spiritual beliefs are the traditional North American Indigenous People's beliefs. The medicine people do not "charge" for advice, ceremonies or healing, and exchange of goods or money is never discussed. However, the person receiving the help understands beforehand, that they will be expected to provide the medicine person with something of value in exchange for their expertise and time. Even though it is not ever discussed, it is expected and this is how the exchange has worked for countless generations.

Maybe modern people have lost that common sense. We want something important for nothing and we take, take, take. The people sharing their messages are being taken from and given nothing in return. Perhaps the exchange has become so unbalanced that they are being forced to ask and we are being nearly forced to pay because otherwise we wouldn't. Just a thought......that they are asking for money because people have become too crass to contribute anymore. Just like how churches have to remind people over and over to please give a little money to help with expenses for the buildings, staff and etc. And especially now with the internet in wide use, won't people just endlessly read, use and re-distribute precious messages without ever enriching the messenger?


answered 20 Jul '10, 16:56

LeeAnn%201's gravatar image

LeeAnn 1

If people really want spiritual enlightenment, they don't need money to find it.

(20 Jul '10, 18:16) Vesuvius

Regarding your edit:

If Bashar's own teachings about the Law of Attraction contradict his statement about posting his material freely on the internet, then I conclude that he lacks integrity, and that his lack of integrity undermines his credibility.

Time will tell whether people perceive his message about copying as a fair one and comply, or they perceive it as being against the principle of the free-flow of information and rebel. My guess is that it will keep the honest people honest.

I used to work for a multi-level distribution company, which I will call Axion. You have probably heard of this company before; they sell a wide variety of household and other products through their distributor network. Each distributor has the opportunity to build a team of people, and make a percentage profit from their work. There's nothing wrong with this; fundamentally, it is no different than how the corporate world works, where corporate owners hire people, and turn a profit from the work of others.

By hiring others to help you in the business (called "building an organization"), you create what I call leverage. Leverage means finding a way to build wealth that is not contingent on you selling your own time at a fixed hourly rate. Leverage is how all wealth is created or "attracted." There are other ways of creating leverage, but this is one way.

To make the system fair, there are laws in place that require distributors who work for multi-level companies to follow certain rules; they must have real customers (i.e. people outside of the network; buying products at retail), they must not create monopolies, and they must not misrepresent themselves. Otherwise, the business becomes a pyramid scheme. More about this in a moment.

As a distributor in any multi-level framework, your success depends greatly on your own mental processes. You must be someone that people like and trust, who can help people work through their misconceptions. You must have the ability to not get discouraged by people who are not interested. But most of all, the company and its distributors must have integrity, and maintain that integrity at all times.

Why? Because you need to maintain that level of trust in order to get anything accomplished in a multi-level business. If you cannot maintain that trust, the whole thing collapses.

During my time as a distributor, I went to a number of company-sponsored events, called functions. The purpose of these functions was to help people develop their vision, and to illustrate the benefits of the opportunity. To do this, they often showed films of the top distributors, demonstrating the results of the wealth they created from the opportunity. Big new house, new cars, jet skis, free company-sponsored trips, you get the idea.

In addition to the functions, there were cassette tapes and books sold. The books were written by well-known authors like Napoleon Hill. The tapes were recordings of top distributors giving speeches at the functions. As part of the training program, distributors were asked to listen to one tape a week. I literally had hundreds of these tapes. The top distributors called this the "tools" business.

There was an implicit assumption, when watching these videos and listening to the tapes, that the lifestyle was created by selling the products, and recruiting new distributors. Imagine my surprise when I found out that the top distributors in the business actually made more money from the sales of tapes and function tickets than they did selling products and recruiting in their core Axion business!

It's not hard to imagine why this is was the case. You could make a cassette for less than a dollar, and sell it for six dollars. It's nearly pure profit. There were some independent studies conducted, and it was estimated that the distributors at the very top of the food chain made 75% to 90% of their income from the tools business.

It gets worse. Although the distributors paid lip service to having real customers, in practice the vast majority of product volume came, not from actual customers, but from what they called "personal use" (distributors buying products wholesale and using them in their own home). Further, because distributors were not allowed to buy tapes, books and function tickets "cross-line" (i.e. from a different top-level distributor), there was no competition for these materials, effectively creating a business monopoly.

I didn't know about any of this for a full year. The organization was very careful to hide the actual details of the tools business. The only reason I found out about it was I asked my upline "director" how much he made from the sale of each tape, and he told me.

Needless to say, the cognitive dissonance I experienced was so great that I could no longer participate in the organization. Even if I could have convinced myself that it was ethically proper to continue in the business, I no longer believed that I could convince others that it was a genuine opportunity.


answered 20 Jul '10, 19:03

Vesuvius's gravatar image


edited 20 Jul '10, 19:52

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