Dear all,

The recent discussion started by Mastermind2 has got me thinking more on this topic...pulling a lot of old books off my shelf about magic, religion, New Thought, manifestation, etc..

There have been a few threads previous to this which discuss what makes "magic" or "Magick" good or bad.

And there has been some highly opinionated speculation (in the original thread I linked to) about if or when the use or misuse of the Law of Attraction constitutes some sort of black magic.

But none, to my knowledge, that has truly answered the question, and addressed the finer points of this issue.

The closest thing I could find was Stingray's comment to me on this old thread that

Many, if not all, religious/mystical ceremonies and rituals are really nothing more than an extension of these ideas...

I think the vast majority of people here can agree on:

There is major overlap between the manifesting principles discussed here (the type advocated by Abraham Hicks and Bashar) and the "miracles" performed in ancient times by Moses, Jesus, his disciples, Taoist wizards, yogis, Indian gurus, etc..

and also...

There is some overlap between the manifesting principles discussed here, and what is done in certain types of magic.

So here is where my question really comes the historical record, there do seem to be plenty of accounts of individuals who brought negativity into their lives by engaging in certain magical practices.

When I first became interested in this stuff, I read books about almost every type of mysticism, religion, spirituality, and occultism that I could get my hands on. While the occult had a certain attraction and fascination for me, something that warned me away was the fact that many occultists seemed to develop disturbing personal lives...their marriages were often complete messes, sometimes their spouses died, and very few of the occultists themselves seemed to live past their 60s or early 70s. From a materialistic angle, there were few who seemed to significantly enlarge their wealth or achieve anything notable outside the world of occultism.

In certain instances, the occultists themselves seemed to have died as a result of their magical practices...such as Michael Witty, who, according to Paul Foster Case, expired due to his involvement in Enochian magic rituals.

I myself had one experience, alluded to here, which proved to me that such a thing as "negative magic" (for lack of a better term) does indeed exist, as do destructive negative entities. For those who require evidence from recorded history, they can read a summary of Benvenuto Cellini's experience here.

By contrast, the Taoists, Yogis, and Zen masters often lived to extraordinary ages, and performed miracles that bettered other peoples' lives. The path of the "mystic" seemed safer and healthier, and so that is what I pursued for many years, from a practical standpoint.

Now that I am getting deep into manifesting, these questions are arising again.

Is this stuff all the same...or are there legitimate differences?

Is there a difference between the healing miracles that the apostles Peter and Stephen performed, and the magic of a 19th century Occultist? If so, what is the difference?

Where do we draw the line? Is there a line that we need to be aware of, if we want to keep ourselves healthy and safe?

I'm not too worried about it... :)

But it seems like it would be a valuable thing to know.

asked 06 Jan '13, 11:44

lozenge123's gravatar image


edited 06 Jan '13, 11:54

Where the pink magic of loa and always feel good at?

(06 Jan '13, 15:51) CalonLan

@CalanLan- yes, the pink(love) magic of loa ... lovely limit :)

(07 Jan '13, 10:26) blubird two
showing 0 of 2 show 2 more comments

Hello lozenge123

Love this question ... miracles, law of attraction, manifestation, good magic, black magic, radionic, reiki, radiesthesia, the list could go on forever, all have one thing in common ... it is the practice of purposely putting into motion subtle energies, communicating with the invisible if you prefer ... in this sense a religious ceremony is identical to performing a magical ceremony.

Where does the line occur ? ... it's all to do with maintaining healthy harmony. There is always feedback, harmony attracts harmony, disharmony attracts disharmony. Taoists, yogis and zen masters always perform in perfect harmony with the natural laws ... :)


answered 06 Jan '13, 14:04

blubird%20two's gravatar image

blubird two

edited 07 Jan '13, 01:22

@blubird two - Glad you love the question...yes, where do the boundaries lie? Food for thought...

(07 Jan '13, 00:36) lozenge123

@lozenge- the boundaries are surely beyond us...

(07 Jan '13, 01:19) blubird two

In response to your "they didn't live long" comment, I'll say this. I have no interest in being an old man. Seeing as I have to die eventually anyway, I don't see anything negative about dying at a younger age. I either cease to be at that point, in which case it doesn't matter when I die, or have a chance to be restored to youth, in which case I have essentially found the secret to eternal youth: to die young.

I think the line is very clear. In black magic, one imagines the existence of self-interested, free entities (often malevolent) which one attempts to influence and associate with, in an attempt to gain their favor. In white magic, one imagines the existence of selfless or enslaved entities, which one attempts to control in an attempt to extend his power. It is interesting that white magic involves slavery while black magic involves negotiation.

This distinction between self-interested and selfless also bleeds into the way the person views himself: as someone that directs the course of his life by his own desires (black magick), limited only by the structure of reality, or someone that must follow the will of a higher power (white magick), free only to a limited extent, if at all. This is why some are drawn to black magick.

The LoA on the other hand assumes there are no entities to deal with at all, it merely assumes a separation in ourselves known as conscious and unconscious, the conscious being the director, the impregnating male, and the unconscious being the manifester, the impregnated female which is forced to bear his children; Adam and Eve.

So to put it another way, magick systems create a map of a spiritual realm that is in a way an extension of the physical realm. They seek to control its power in the same way that a scientist seeks to control the power of physical nature. Black magick assumes the spiritual realm is filled with human-like creatures while white magick assumes the spiritual realm is filled with objects or at the most, animal-like creatures, which can therefore be domesticated in the same way that a dog or a horse may.

LoA assumes that the individual is God and that all power resides within him. There is no manipulation of the external because the external is assumed to be nothing but himself pushed out.


answered 06 Jan '13, 12:25

flowsurfer's gravatar image


edited 06 Jan '13, 12:29


i would say that black magic you become the slave to your own ego and bring your own destruction for material gain. and white magic you work in harmony with the all for the good of all. so black magic you work for your self only from a ego based place. and white magic from your true self for your self and other. black magic is the wide road of destruction. white magic is the narrow door. the difference between the 2 that bring people toward black magic is that they do not know them self.

(06 Jan '13, 13:05) white tiger

it is easier to just follow the ego and have things as easy as possible and very fast,the only problem is that it does not last and you bring youre own destruction.

(06 Jan '13, 13:22) white tiger

So what is my true self?

(06 Jan '13, 14:12) flowsurfer

@flowsurfer - Thanks a bunch for the response...definitely helped with clarifying a few things, especially the stuff pertaining to magic. Regarding the longevity issue, you may find the following thread of interest:

(06 Jan '13, 14:55) lozenge123

I'll check it out. There is a guy that claims to know people thousands of years old. He described one of them as "a healthy elderly man, except his teeth are black". I don't want to live for thousands of years as an elderly person. There is the story of a prince whose father tried to hide the existence of aging and poverty from him, hoping to save him from it. One day this prince saw it and became very troubled. He went out seeking to find a way to save people from death. He became the Buddah.

(06 Jan '13, 15:07) flowsurfer

"saving" people from death, won't get them to live.

(06 Jan '13, 15:52) CalonLan

Actually, it will.

(06 Jan '13, 16:01) flowsurfer
(07 Jan '13, 00:40) lozenge123

No, it was an italian. The teeth got black from using oregano as a teeth cleaning herb.

(07 Jan '13, 10:05) flowsurfer
showing 2 of 9 show 7 more comments

I would imagine that "the line" is different for everyone and it is up to us and our consciences, to know when we have crossed it.

For myself, I use the LOA for, wealth and happiness. I refuse to try using it to get over on someone, to try manipulating anyone else, or to try having anything that does not belong to me. If you want to truly delve into the subject, since we all have free will, it is not even possible to harm another without their permission, but that is another subject in many ways. I only try to use it for "good" by my definition.


answered 07 Jan '13, 15:28

LeeAnn%201's gravatar image

LeeAnn 1

@LeeAnn 1 - Thanks for the response...this all makes a lot of sense.

(11 Jan '13, 23:09) lozenge123

"There is major overlap between the manifesting principles discussed here (the type advocated by Abraham Hicks and Bashar) and the "miracles" performed in ancient times by Moses, Jesus, his disciples, Taoist wizards, yogis, Indian gurus, etc.."

Agree, the same thing. But personal point of view can see vast differences.

"Black Magic(k)" might be considered attempting to influence others to unwillingly do your bidding. As white tiger says, it is ego based.

Since we have the freedom to individually exist in different universes, people can create a universe of their own where "black magick" has power to "harm" others, or themselves.

The LOA will operate inexorably to manifest according to the individual's focus. But as the individual "attracts" within that universe of "dark forces" they will face this darkness and multiply it.

Certainly, if you think, believe, in these forces, it will be so for you. In some universes, Superman exists; Hitler won WWII; Freddie exists; Aliester Crowley still does rituals to bend Pan to his will. You have the right, the ability to visit horror movies, or any other "movies".

You can focus on other universes, where there is "white magic."

Personally I tend to focus on "grey". :)

EDITED: One of the reasons I studied magick was that I realized that when I got very angry at someone, they suffered. There were quite a few instances. It seemed they began experiencing very bad luck. Anything that could go wrong, did go wrong!

I went to a lot of metaphysical teachers to see if there was some way of turning this off. I did not intentionally want people to suffer. I did not intentionally program they would suffer, so these teachers told me I was not at fault. I wanted to use this to help people instead. So I began visualizing good things coming to them. This seemed to dispel the bad and maybe help.

I was studying astral projection as a way of studying the Qabala, but had little "physical plane" experience. Until

A woman I knew asked me to help her on the astral plane to influence a potential boyfriend who was not paying her the attention she wanted. She was living with another guy, but thought she could have an affair on the side.

She said that she would meet me on the astral at midnight and we would "visit" the protential boyfriend. She wanted me to be the male influence in her working. I thought, "Yeah, right, SURE!" I did not think this was possible.

I was meditating about midnight and she appeared. Very surreal. We flew to an apartment that I had never seen. I watched as she began putting erotic images about herself into the sleeping guy.

Was very weird. Early the next morning she called me and asked waht I had experienced. She described his apartment and I filled in a lot of details. She knew the apartment and agreed. This indicated that this was a real experience.

Later on that same day she called me in a panic. It seemed that the "potential" boyfriend had called her about ten times, after never calling her before, wanting to get together. Her live-in boyfriend had answered the phone a few times and was asking her difficult questions!

So she asked me to meet her again, on the astral, and "cool this guy down!"

Same story that night. She removed images. He never called her again, but a relationship that I was having suddenly turned bad, the girl started saying that she could not trust me. There was no connection between the other situation, but this relationship, an important relationship to me, suddenly and totally fell apart.

I guess this was black magic and I paid a price.


answered 07 Jan '13, 09:11

Dollar%20Bill's gravatar image

Dollar Bill

edited 07 Jan '13, 12:04

In Neville's lecture "Our Real Beliefs" there is the story of a writer who wanted praise from his employer. So he imagined the man saying "This is absolutely fantastic!"; and then he heard it. This is not black magick. By your standards, marketing is "black magick". I suppose you could define it simply as "Black Magick is the attempt to accumulate power", "White Magick is the attempt to align with power" and "LoA is the attempt to recognize one's power". Hum, I think that is good...

(07 Jan '13, 10:26) flowsurfer

"White Magick is the attempt to align with power" and "LoA is the attempt to recognize (and align with) one's power". I like this and agree!

The situation with any magic is that you can only send out a pale copy of your intent, the original stays with you. Make sure that "original" is something you want in your life!

(07 Jan '13, 11:41) Dollar Bill

@Dollar Bill - Thanks for the great response and story. A question for you: why do you think I became a witness (and target) of negative supernatural forces all those many years ago, when I previously had no belief in them? That is one aspect of this which seems to contradict the law that "if you believe in it, it is real...or if you believe it, only then can you attract it, etc..). It was a good thing in the long run, because it made me aware of the spiritual realm, but I can't work out...

(07 Jan '13, 14:12) lozenge123

...why it would have entered my experience in the first place, when I did not believe in it, unless it was some sort of universal phenomenon (like the Law of Attraction, it exists whether you acknowledge/believe in it or not). Thanks for your perspective.

(07 Jan '13, 14:13) lozenge123

What was the trigger for those negative forces?

(07 Jan '13, 14:53) flowsurfer

@flowsurfer - I was reading a scholarly translation of a medieval manuscript on Necromancy (my purpose in reading it was purely scholarly).

(07 Jan '13, 15:10) lozenge123
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